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France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#231

Post by yesbabyyes »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #221
methodover wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell are you talking about? Harris doesn't advocate for genocide in End of Faith. That's insane.

I'm talking about his "if Islamists acquired nuclear weapons, a nuclear first strike against Middle East countries would be the only way to protect the Western Way Of Life."

Interesting. That's strikingly similar to the idea, held by many in the US, that the new nuclear weapons should be utilized against Soviet ASAP, before they had the chance to build their own. Even Bertrand Russell advocated for this.

That someone I hold as a model in so much could display such levels of collective madness is one of those things I use to remind myself, of how fickle we are.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#232

Post by Mikeb85 »

gotchange wrote: post #225
Mikeb85 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Saeed (or Said, Syed, etc...) WAS one of Mohamed's companions... And I'm well aware of the bigots, who attack Sikhs for what Muslims do, and attack Jews because, well, Jews... I don't know if you follow politics, but the far right is rising in Europe. Those bigots and idiots are raising their voice. Every time there's an attack by Muslims, those idiots gain more votes... A decade ago the FN was a joke. Today the…

سيد or سعيد are not religious names. The former means "Lord" or "Master" and the latter means "Happy" or "Gay". They're perfectly secular names. The religious names are Mohammad's aliases plus the Big Four figures in Sunni Islam and the other big figures in Shiite Islam. Other than these, the rest are non Islamic names. If some low level Mohammad's companion was called سعيد, this doesn't change the fact that it's a s…

> Let them have this experiment. If they're so bigoted and extreme to their own detriment, I wouldn't stop them.

Said someone in Europe, circa 1931.

Fact is, extremism generally hurts more people than the extremists...

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#233

Post by agumonkey »

Silhouette wrote: post #224
agumonkey wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the kind of things that makes me thing democracy as it is is broken. It's a self-sustaining low-hanging-fruit race. I wish I knew how to tweak it back into sense.

If your level of representation at national level is a single vote every few years, then the average adult is going to get perhaps 10-20 chances to express an opinion at that level in their entire lives . Western governments probably have more departments than that at any given time . In any party political system, where your choices even when you do get to express an opinion are limited to perhaps half a dozen candi…

The pyramidal structure annoy me very much. I don't want to align with someone on a big trendy issue. A nation is a system, with organs, I want problems to be assessed on each, fixes proposed, and then applied. And I fear that in reality, no amount of discussion may convey what they are thinking, what they will do and how it has a chance to solve problems.

It's all far too shallow and blurry. Hence the need to rally people on a fad argument, sad.

ps: on to reading the last half of your comment.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#234

Post by gkya »

ethbro wrote: post #228
gkya wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. In Turkey, we've seen on TV or heard of many families turning in their children many many times. In fact, the suicide-bomber-brothers who killed upwards of a hundred victims in Ankara were reported to be islamic state militants multiple times by their parents. They've reported them many times to different author…

Let's not forget that the Roman Empire was not without its atrocities in the name of the Greater Good. Bad often has to be done so that More Bad for More People won't happen. And before we catigate Europe, let's not forget that there are a substantial number of sectarian and ethnic minority/majority tensions even inside of the Muslim governed world. No one is without blood on their hands.

> No one is without blood on their hands.

I concur. I just picked the side of the rather-under-represented. Neither am I a Rome or Ancient Greece fan.

> Bad often has to be done so that More Bad for More People won't happen.

Bad will always bring more bad with it. You can try to kill all the muslims, you'll end up with another terrorist sect, just from a different religion. Or you'll terrorise other moderate muslims, should you not be able to kill them all, and make them into terrorists. A vicious cycle of violence is only broken via virtue.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#235

Post by madec »

mcansky wrote: post #91
acd wrote: post #85

West will not win against crazy groups by reimplementing the great firewall of China. If the state wants to control our lifes, they should have real time access to credit card and phone data. One main issue is religions and that it turns people against each other due to different beliefs.

no book of religion pushes people to grab a knife or a gun to harm others; crazy leaders do and unstable and uneducated people follow. yet, even if we discard that previous point : forbidding religions would be exactly the same as creating one and pointing "believers" as enemies of "non believers" ... triggering more of what you try to stop general education and broad tolerance between cultures (either religious or n…

> no book of religion pushes people to grab a knife or a gun to harm others; crazy leaders do and unstable and uneducated people follow.

There are calls to violence for the sake of Islam in the Quran. These verses are among the last to be revealed and thereby are considered to overrule earlier verses (the concept of abrogation in Islam is known as "naskh"[2]). This is in stark contrast to Christianity, where Jesus abrogated the Old Covenant (i.e. the Jewish laws that contain most of the barbarism that people love to quote) with the New Covenant (hence the names). This view has been held in Christianity pretty much from its inception and is what the vast majority of Christians believe[3].

Two oft-cited examples from the Quran:

>And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.[0]

>Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

[0] http://quran.com/9/5

[1] http://quran.com/9/29

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28tafsir%29

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_the_Old_Cov...

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#236

Post by swsieber »

nova wrote: post #197
swsieber wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's terrible is that we only put politicians on a single axis.

I used to like the Nolan chart too, but recently I've been thinking that even 2 axes is overfitting. Politics is so complicated that only a very simple model has predictive value, even with huge variance. I think a single axis order-disorder is the best we can do to talk in general terms.

IIRC at the convention that wrote the constitution there were about 5 axis involved. I can't remember what they were though. Any insight on it would be appreciated.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#237

Post by cryoshon »

alexqgb wrote: post #203
cryoshon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.

it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor Sure, but why stop there instead of going just a tiny bit deeper and identifying the money layer? You'll find it has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with efforts by the House of Saud to maintain an increasingly dubious hold on worldly power. You'll also find a rat's nest of illiberal interests from nominally liberal countries with an interest…

Yes, this is my perspective as well, but for ease of conversation I didn't mention it here-- people get very upset.

But take it a step further. Who funds Saudi Arabia, and why? Who backs radical Sunnis, and why? Who backs the radical Shia? Geopolitical problems have many causes and symptoms which can grow into entire pathologies in their own right when they get really out of control, as the West's idiotic power struggle with Russia in the Middle East has.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#238

Post by gkya »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #230
gkya wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. In Turkey, we've seen on TV or heard of many families turning in their children many many times. In fact, the suicide-bomber-brothers who killed upwards of a hundred victims in Ankara were reported to be islamic state militants multiple times by their parents. They've reported them many times to different author…

> In Turkey, we've seen on TV or heard of many families turning in their children many many times. And that's why there's still hope for Turkey. > In fact, the suicide-bomber-brothers who killed upwards of a hundred victims in Ankara were reported to be islamic state militants multiple times by their parents. They've reported them many times to different authorities. Well, plenty of people do think that Erdogan is st…

> Well, plenty of people do think that Erdogan is strongly sympathetic to ISIS.

I do not believe that he has emotions. It's all money and power, IMO. And he is as representative of his people as Hitler is of today's Germans. And it's not that Europe is enemies with him.

> Can blame all you want, but what's done is done.

Then you should have the same approach to terrorist attacks too. See, ideas have the bad side effect of applying to a wider spectrum than you intend.

> Canada (or rather British territories in North America) was once at war with the Americans. We were at war with the Germans (twice). We got over it.

You got over it helping each other. You didn't exterminate Germans for the bad they did. Revenge will not bring peace. It'll bring more revenge.

> Don't pretend the Islamic world didn't participate in the [empire building games.]

I'm not a muslim, and I do not have any sympathy for any religion or empire. The world progresses, and what I do not like is the pride that people try to hold on to. My words should boil down to "we are different faces of the same evil". In the end, West has had more chance to mess it up than the muslims, and they've never ceased to do so. Where are the native americans?

> If the West is so vengeful, why IS Istanbul still Istanbul?

It is Istanbul now. Who knows what'll happen tomorrow?

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#239

Post by biafra »

joefarish wrote: post #172
rwmj wrote: post #5

All this because 130 people were killed. What would they do to prevent the 4600 people killed in road accidents in France last year? Or the 49000 people killed by alcohol [in 2009]?

There is a benefit in being able to drive on the roads, what is the benefit in being attacked by terrorists?

Wrong questions. You need to ask: What is the benefit of being able to use Tor? What is the benefit of communicating privately with the help of encryption?

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#240

Post by Mikeb85 »

dang wrote: post #229
Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

> the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works I appreciate from your other comments that your views are nuanced, but posting something this glib about something this horrific crosses the line here.

> I appreciate from your other comments that your views are nuanced, but posting something this glib about something this horrific crosses the line here.

Here's the thing. Eventually, Islamic extremism WILL disappear. Today, tomorrow, or in 100 years. The only question is how that happens.

My wife is Muslim (and dark-skinned). I married her in an Islamic ceremony (meaning I became Muslim, at least in the eyes of some Islamic authority). Her family all have Muslim names. Our children will be visibly non-white.

We're also secular, and like to do secular things. I'd love to go to Europe with her, we both have family there, and I'd love for the world to be a place where she isn't discriminated against (and she HAS experienced racism here, in Canada), either by the state, by ignorant red-necks, or by other Muslims.

The fact is, every time terrorist attacks happen, she feels it. The looks at work, the comments on Facebook. I don't remember people talking about 'deporting all the Muslims' in Canada until very recently. We (as in myself, my wife and family) have a stake in this. She didn't choose to be Muslim, but she does suffer consequences today. And she knows it can get worse. Some of her family have converted to another religion and changed their names - she's considered it as well. It would be nice if abandoning your birth identity wasn't something you even had to consider.

Anyhow, either extremism is rooted out now, or it'll be rooted out later. It'll likely be more painful later...

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