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Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

blogs.dropbox.com

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Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#221
post #197
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because there simply isn't money to be made in being an e-mail startup. Or, more correctly, there isn't enough money to be made to satisfy VC investors. Mailbox and the like could have lived quite comfortably as paid-for apps with comfortable but small levels of profit, but that isn't what Silicon Valley rewards. EDIT: also, IIRC Apple's restrictions on background processing meant that they needed to have ev…

And you are limited by a 30 year old standard (IMAP) with an insane message format. Building a truly new email experience would require a new protocol as well.

It could be worse. I still have relatives using POP--across multiple devices!

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine Mailbox has a heavy server component, which would be non-trivial to get set up and running on your own.

That's hardly a reason to not open-source. You're not required to provide support just because you release your source code. Even a dump of their repositories would be useful for people who are interested in Mailbox.

Honestly most startup backend systems are not amazingly engineered or something to be proud of, so I would guess that the code would need some considerable work before releasing it to the public if that is what they chose to do. Even after release, the project would need considerable support to get it off the ground (helping the first users, accepting contributions, establishing the project community and leadership). Simply dumping the code on Github with no instructions and leaving it to rot is not particularly useful.

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#223

Ugh. Yet another intriguing email startup being acquihired and killed off by a more-established tech company (see also: Sparrow). It's 2015 and I still bounce around email clients every couple months because all of the major options have substantial flaws.

I co-founded ITA Software and have been using some of the proceeds from the sale to Google to fund an email startup. (http://inky.com) The challenges outlined in this thread are all accurate. If you're thinking about putting effort (or money) behind an email startup, think again. I simply don't believe it's doable for a normal startup (i.e., one without a crazy rich guy plowing money into it until it's good enough). The VC-backed "winners" will all get aqui-hired, and then the acquirers will be unhappy because what they bought wasn't actually good enough for prime time.

Here are just a handful of the reasons:

- It is deceptively hard. Like airfare pricing, most people think it's a couple weekends of work, when in fact it's at least 5 years and millions of lines of code to get to a real MVP that someone could use instead of Outlook, Thunderbird or Apple Mail, etc... The set of abstractions required to do it right are unobvious and nontrivial, and you end up with unfixable problems if you don't get them all right. We've rewritten Inky essentially from scratch twice, and only in the current version 3 (circa October 2015) do we finally have the abstractions correct. Look at the Thunderbird bugzilla logs and you will find thousands of bug entries, many of which go on for pages and pages. ITA was similar, by the way: 1996-2001 was basically iteration to get to an MVP.

And because it's not just hard, but deceptively hard, founders and their teams systematically underestimate the effort required, which leads to all kinds of failure modes. Even in the success stores like Mailbox, the teams basically punt on a number of hard problems that really are required for an MVP (like properly sanitizing HTML, supporting Exchange and IMAP "for real", proper support for all the weirdly encoded mail you see in the wild, encrypted mail via S/MIME, etc.)

- The other entities you have to work with are a complete nightmare, and as the client app everything appears to be your fault. Google, Apple, Yahoo, etc. just do whatever the hell they want, randomly, have broken servers they never fix, and place arbitrary problematic restrictions on clients: all limit clients to a small number of connections, and Apple won't let an email app run in the background, so you can't support "real" push notifications without keeping the user's credentials unencrypted in the cloud (which I refuse to do). Google, out of the blue, started banning clients that didn't use oAuth, sending users scary messages about unsafe software. oAuth is great, but just breaking everyone who doesn't support it yet is really, really nasty.

- VCs absolutely hate the space. Email startups have been dogs forever, and every name-brand VC has been burned on a crappy email investment.

- Consumers simply don't care about usability, privacy, or anything else enough to not use what comes with their phones.

- Security-conscious people who might pay for something that's genuinely secure never believe anything is genuinely secure in practice unless it's open source... in which case there is no business model.

- Existing mainstream clients are ironically sticky, because once users develop coping strategies to deal with the quirks of the client they're forced to use, they never want to invest the effort into learning the quirks of a new client.

So why do I work on it? Because in my opinion it's a really important problem that affects billions of people -- and one that needs to be solved properly by folks who are doing it not just as a data harvesting operation, loss-leader to sell devices, or as a way to build a moat around a core offering (search).

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: "If you delete the application from your phone, your data is gone for good" is the worst possible way to phrase what is otherwise an excellent feature :-)

Haha, thanks for the feedback. Copywriting was never my strong suit ;) Any tips on how I can improve it?

"We don't own your data - Your emails never leave your phone."

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#225

It is no surprise, when one-product companies do other products they don't last for long. Only reason why I still use Dropbox is their client for Mac and and simple web interface and some other small features. I don't understand why nobody else is able to do it...

Network file systems are hard. There are 30+ years of posts in various places of the Internet, hundreds of books, and dozens of implementations' source listings that you can read.

Dropbox have exceptional engineering talent, and a mature code base. Nobody else before or since, has ever come even close to what they have, quality- or feature-wise.

That they make it look easy doesn't mean that it is easy. It's like saying, all this guy ever does is hitting the puck in the net skating backwards, I don't understand why nobody else is able to do it?

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#226
post #11

Mailbox and Sunrise, two productivity apps that I liked, got acquired (Dropbox 2013, Microsoft 2015), and discontinued in 2015.

Wasn't Sunrise renamed Outlook on iOS? I have Outlook on my iPhone and it looks the same as the screenshot in the below discontinuation announcement...

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Sparrow is still my favorite email app on the Mac. Sadly had to give up on it with iOS as it just got super wonky. Will use it as long as it works on OSX.

Still using Sparrow, but wondering if it works on El Capitan? Does anybody use it on El Capitan?

I use it with El Capitan. Still works fine.

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#228
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid anyone make any money. Where I work we feed our engineers on the appreciation of free users. That's the only way to fly. Self-entitled much?

God forbid anyone share abandoned code. Where I work we incinerate anything potentially useful when we're done with it. That way no dirty freeloaders can take advantage of it.

Let Pa be the probability that some piece of your open-sourced codebase reveals an important technique or strategy to your competitor, thus leveling a technological advantage you have,

Let Ca be the cost of that lost advantage,

Let Cb be the value of good will from the open source community

In what case is Cb bigger than (Pa * Ca)?

Re: Dropbox closing Carousel and Mailbox

#230
post #70
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunrise is [being] integrated into Microsoft Outlook, I think.

Locking it into a Microsoft product can be seen as the same as discontinuation.

It supports the same email types that Sunrise did.

Disclaimer: MS employee, nothing to do with Outlook though.

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