France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi • Hacker News Board

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#171

Post by Kristine1975 » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

cryoshon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

>Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation

That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#172

Post by joefarish » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #5

All this because 130 people were killed. What would they do to prevent the 4600 people killed in road accidents in France last year? Or the 49000 people killed by alcohol [in 2009]?

There is a benefit in being able to drive on the roads, what is the benefit in being attacked by terrorists?

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#173

Post by tdkl » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:40 PM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #161

tdkl wrote: post #8

And they were mocking the reactionary Patriot Act. Learning from the past is hard. Or in this case, simply neglected for convenience. Cui bono?

Who's "they"? Do you have links to "they"? Do you have proof that the one "they" is the same group as the other "they"?

I'll get back to you when I'm done with my delicious freedom fries.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#174

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:42 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #165

jacquesm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't subscribe to that view. There is enough misery in the world that you can always find a suitable event without having to concoct your own. All it takes is the press to magnify an event out of proportion and voila: instant crisis.

Is the distinction between conspiracy and symbiosis really that significant?

That's food for thought. Gut feeling: yes, ability to articulate: none. So I could be wrong on that because I have no data to support it. At a minimum it implies a harder problem to do a roll-back (if conspiracy were detected a roll-back would be easier). So I do think there are differences that are significant.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#175

Post by JacobiX » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

cryoshon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

Not only the Muslims are targeted, if you are an Atheist Arab and it happens that you have an Arabic name you will receive the same treatment.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#176

Post by protomyth » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

Kristine1975 wrote: post #157

protomyth wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting rid of your competition is a pretty standard tactic when you are taking over. The National Socialists were socialists.

>The National Socialists were socialists Proof?

well, I cannot discount the name, but this speech https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitle... would indicate such

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#177

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

JacobiX wrote: post #175

Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

Not only the Muslims are targeted, if you are an Atheist Arab and it happens that you have an Arabic name you will receive the same treatment.

Which is why many of my wife's family have changed their names, and given their children non-Muslim names.

On the flip side, my wife has also had other Muslims judge her for being too secular...

BTW, Arab-Christians are a thing, they're not named Mohammed, Ali or Abu Bakr... 'Muslim' names are distinct from 'Arab' names (ie. Are names of Islamic saints).

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#178

Post by scrollaway » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

tdkl wrote: post #173

scrollaway wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "they"? Do you have links to "they"? Do you have proof that the one "they" is the same group as the other "they"?

I'll get back to you when I'm done with my delicious freedom fries.

I can't quite tell if you're a troll or merely have a really hard time understanding that France is actually in a very complex position here.

This entire thread is so depressingly misinformed about the country that I don't have the heart to correct people.

Namely people are quick to forget that France is in fact in a state of emergency and that conditions do change when that's pulled. It doesn't mean we should lie down and accept anything and everything, but forgetting what's actually going on makes everything worse.

There are serious issues with the current french government but they have nothing to do with "the left" or "the right", as if those things ever mattered. They have to do with how NIH and technologically impaired France is and that hasn't changed since the minitel.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#179

Post by IkmoIkmo » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

cryoshon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

Eh, could you hold that thought for a moment? We're busy with our collective punishment programme of Christians, they should've stopped Breivik because hey, all Christians exchange terrorist plans and knew it was coming but they didn't warn the police! The only way we can convince them to warn the police next time is to punish them collectively this time, these Christians just don't care otherwise...

Can you see how silly your reasoning is or do you want more jokes?

Collective punishment is a stupid, barbaric, medieval idea we've fortunately gotten rid of. You're suggesting guilt by association, it's on the level of ridiculous ideas you'd expect from groups like IS.

Re: France looking at banning Tor, blocking public Wi-Fi

#180

Post by Mikeb85 » Mon, Dec 07, 2015, 6:03 PM UTC

Kristine1975 wrote: post #171

Mikeb85 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absol…

>Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.

Except I'm not advocating genocide. Just pointing out that, if more tolerable solutions don't work, and it does become a perceived choice of 'us' vs 'them', people will choose themselves 10/10 times.