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Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

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Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#41

Post by mercurial »

jacquesm wrote: post #22
mercurial wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major impact was the rise of national identities following the revolutionary wars and Napoleonic conquests. The same population who took part in the Terror voted happily for noted autocrat Napoleon, then lived under kings of various levels of mediocrity, briefly under a Republic before electing the then-President Emperor (because that turned out so well the first time), before returning to a Republican regime aft…

France never reverted to the kind of excesses that the set of Royalty at the time of the French revolution practiced. And yes, you're right the effect wasn't a direct one but it definitely became part of the DNA of France. For instance the role of the church before and after the revolution are tremendously different and aristocracy never managed to get the same strong grip on France as it did before.

> France never reverted to the kind of excesses that the set of Royalty at the time of the French revolution practiced.

> And yes, you're right the effect wasn't a direct one but it definitely became part of the DNA of France. For instance the role of the church before and after the revolution are tremendously different and aristocracy never managed to get the same strong grip on France as it did before.

If you mean it was the end of the absolute monarchy, then yes, absolutely. Charles X (second French king of the XIXth century) hadn't got the memo, and his attempt to go back to the good old days cost him his life. However, Napoleon's empire wasn't particularly different from pre-revolutionary France in terms of political liberties.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#42

Post by mercurial »

Natsu wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France never reverted to the kind of excesses that the set of Royalty at the time of the French revolution practiced. And yes, you're right the effect wasn't a direct one but it definitely became part of the DNA of France. For instance the role of the church before and after the revolution are tremendously different and aristocracy never managed to get the same strong grip on France as it did before.

Most developed places never practiced the same excesses, though... other than the Communist countries, at least.

I think you misread parent. You seem to refer to the excesses of the French revolution, not of the French monarchy. It's true that France would not know the same kind of mass executions all over the country again, but it would exert occasionally a ferocious repression during its wars (eg, in Spain during the Napoleonic Wars) or in its colonies (eg, the massacres in French Algeria just after the end of WWII).

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#43

Post by ddebernardy »

makmanalp wrote: post #30
ddebernardy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suspicious that you can really describe the French Revolution as "generally horrific". Sure, there were quite a few executions (~40k or so), that were often arbitrary and spectacular. And the Vendée rebellion got massacred (~100k+ depending on the source) [1]. But what really contributed to the death toll were the Revolutionary wars [2] and the Napoleon campaigns [3]. By contrast, modern warfare with machine guns…

Well, you need to put the numbers in perspective. In 1789 the population of Paris was around 600-700k. So in relative terms, an amount of people that is equivalent to 6%ish of Paris got executed, and in total a fifth of the equivalent of Paris died. Seems pretty bad to me. Also, all this happened in 3 short years. Besides, they're both just really horrific. "40k is nothing" is not quite the right attitude here.

Of course. But consider:

- Over a 5 year period, ~40k is ~8k/year or around 22/day for the French revolution, with a population of ~26M around 1790.

- Over a 29 year period, ~20M is ~700k/year or around 1.7k/day for Staline, with a population of around ~102M around 1950.

Not discounting the horrific nature of getting your head chopped off of course. But all things equal the guillotine and arbitrary executions during the French revolution was nowhere near as deadly as Staline or other 20th-century mass-murder regimes. Humanity made great "progress" in between the two in its ability to industrialize murder.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#44

Post by dekhn »

seszett wrote: post #33
dekhn wrote: post #3

Other interesting Lavoisier facts: he used to hang around the imperial gardens with a massive lens using it to burn things inside sealed chambers. This always makes me think of kids with lenses and ants, but the work was key to understanding the nature of oxygen. his wife was a great scholar too, she diagrammed his work, and translated it and other works (french/german/english).

Nitpicking, but he died before the Empire (and I don't think there were imperial gardens) so I suppose it was the royal gardens instead (maybe Versailles or the Tuileries?).

Ah, didn't know that was different. Yes, Tuileries.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#45

Post by BrandoElFollito »

cmdkeen wrote: post #23
dudul wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutions are violent, especially when they are over-throwing 10 centuries of monarchy. Did you know that the 14th of July is not a celebration of the storming of the Bastille? It is actually celebrating the 14th of July 1790, the Fête de la Fédération, a pacific celebration of the French nation.

Or it has its origins in both. Especially as the Fête de la Fédération was the commemoration the year after the storming of the Bastille. It might help were the 14th not commonly referred to as Bastille day and feature a military parade.

It is referred to as "Prise de la Bastille", not "Bastille Day"

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#46

Post by Natsu »

mercurial wrote: post #42
Natsu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most developed places never practiced the same excesses, though... other than the Communist countries, at least.

I think you misread parent. You seem to refer to the excesses of the French revolution, not of the French monarchy. It's true that France would not know the same kind of mass executions all over the country again, but it would exert occasionally a ferocious repression during its wars (eg, in Spain during the Napoleonic Wars) or in its colonies (eg, the massacres in French Algeria just after the end of WWII).

No, I was referring to the excesses of the monarchy. I think North Korea is one example of a Communist country that has gone above and beyond any ancient monarchy with its terrible mix of poverty, starvation, exploitation there. And it's still going that way even today.

Re: Lavoisier died at age 50, on the guillotine

#48

Post by geyang »

cmdkeen wrote: post #11
geyang wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

another fun fact about them: Marie-Anne Paulze Lavoisier, his wife remarried to a rich publisher after Lavoisier's death, who supported her to publish a lot of the work. (both awesome people) David, the guy who painted this portrait was the person who signed Lavoisier's guillotine papers. The story goes David was an amateur scientist, had some presentations, and was humiliated when Lavoisier make it clear that it was…

David died in 1825. He fell out of favour for his part in the Terror but was kept on and even offered roles in the restored monarchy.

Thanks for the correction!
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