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Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

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Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#111
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The militia is well-regulated; the right to bear arms is unrestricted.

Fair point about the separate clauses-- but what's the intent of the "well-regulated" part, then?

Fair point about the separate clauses-- but what's the intent of the "well-regulated" part, then?

That whole preface was a compromise of sorts, a sop thrown to the anti-Federalists who wanted to outlaw standing armies and depend on the militia system. Which just wasn't practical in such an unthreatened place like the US, compare to Switzerland---and I wonder what will happen with their post-Cold War downsizing when things get hot again.

And there was the minor detail that George Washington, the essential man in all this, wouldn't sign off on such a prohibition. He's not as anti-militia as he's sometimes made out to be, but his position that a complete dependence on the militia system wouldn't do was unrefutable.

The well regulated part of it came from the observation that if you just keep the militia's weapons in armories except for formal practice and fighting, an excuse the British used to confiscate all of them in Boston, the militia members aren't going to be any damn good with them when put to the test.

Again going back to the Swiss system, at least during the Cold War once you were in the reserves you had to qualify with your personal weapon once a year, failure to score high enough signed you up for a 2 week refresher course. So they have an insane number of 300 meter range lines, subsidized and very high quality ammo sold at them (in theory you're supposed to use it all up on the spot), and a whole bunch of other things to encourage good marksmanship.

Hmmm, you know, going back to what the British did back then, very few of the arguments are new, and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were based on direct, living memory of their depredations back then. Modify at your peril.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#112
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going back to 2010, there have been 182 fatalities[1] in the United States due to mass shootings. In the same amount of time, there have been about 158 fatalities due to being struck by lightning.[2] In 2013 alone, there were 611,105 fatalities due to heart disease and 56,979 due to influenze and pneumonia.[3] The stats are a bit out of date, but from 2005-2009, ~3,500 people drowned each year.[4] If you're worried a…

Going back to 1996, there have been zero fatalities in Australia due to mass shootings -- as well as fewer shootings, and fewer homicides and suicides overall. Why? 1996 was the year the Australians banned guns .

I've read, without checking it out, that methods simply switched to things like arson. Which I'll note was used in the 2 worst US mass murders of this sort.

The problem is not the tools but the people.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#113
post #83
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no point in debating the past or the original text of the Second Amendment. Post-Heller, post-McDonald, it's moot. The Court's word is Constitution. If the anti-gun (really, pro-authoritarian-state) minority wants to ban firearms: they should lobby for a Constitutional amendment (which will undoubtedly fail), and then lobby for each individual state to ban arms - keeping in mind, some states have…

Sandy Hook, Colorado (3 times in recent memory), Lafayette, San Bernardino, et cetera, et fucking cetera. Every time one of these shootings happens RKBA repeal gets dragged closer to the Overton window. The only question is how much more human blood must be shed.

Every time one of these shootings happens RKBA repeal gets dragged closer to the Overton window.

Evidence for this?

Revealed preferences show Americans buying firearms in steadily increasing numbers, e.g. both November and Black Friday hit new NICS records.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#114
post #103
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandy Hook, Colorado (3 times in recent memory), Lafayette, San Bernardino, et cetera, et fucking cetera. Every time one of these shootings happens RKBA repeal gets dragged closer to the Overton window. The only question is how much more human blood must be shed.

I don't think he was referring to mass shooters. He was referring to rounding up all those guns owned by normals: law-abiding gun owners spread out across an area of 3.8 million square miles. Frankly, I don't think the authoritarians have the stomach for gun prohibition. They need to get busy, pronto. It's going to take more, a lot more, than tweets to people who already agree with them. And so far, they've done noth…

Frankly, I don't think the authoritarians have the stomach for gun prohibition.

Well, given that we won't take this passively and will start slaughtering them, retail or wholesale (e.g. kill Blue cities by taking out their electrical system), I would hope they don't "have the stomach" for it. Well, prior to using the amendment process to repeal the 2nd Amendment, and even then that wouldn't change the facts on the ground, just like outside of Illinois Heller and McDonald haven't much changed the facts on the ground.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#115
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say that the country needed well managed militias to protect the country. Remember, the first several battles of the revolution were local Massachusetts militias defending their local weapons caches and supplies.

I see how that was critical to the nation at the time, but then how is that amendment relevant in the modern world? Standing armed forces protect our national integrity, and state/county/municipal agencies maintain local order. Aren't local militias effectively obsolete?

Standing armed forces protect our national integrity, and state/county/municipal agencies maintain local order. Aren't local militias effectively obsolete?

Echoing Pyxl101, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" ("Who will guard the guards themselves?"). We gun owners believe we provide a needed bulwark against the worst forms of tyranny, and certainly notice that 20th Century tyrants for some inexplicable reason fell disarming targeted populaces was a prerequisite to slaughtering them wholesale. Given what an abattoir the 20th Century turned out to be, maybe you should seriously consider that bit of unpleasant history?

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#116
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not the main purpose of the Second Amendment at all.

Arguably, it was. See: http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/13890-the-second-amendmen... http://news.wabe.org/post/right-bear-arms-against-slave-revo...

"Arguably"? Nope. Read District of Columbia v. Heller. It's all there. It's really not arguable.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, it was. See: http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/13890-the-second-amendmen... http://news.wabe.org/post/right-bear-arms-against-slave-revo...

"Arguably"? Nope. Read District of Columbia v. Heller . It's all there. It's really not arguable.

Arguably, Heller was decided wrongly, and will be overturned by a future Court. 5-4 decisions often suck.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#118
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Arguably"? Nope. Read District of Columbia v. Heller . It's all there. It's really not arguable.

Arguably, Heller was decided wrongly, and will be overturned by a future Court. 5-4 decisions often suck.

> Arguably, Heller was decided wrongly

Let's keep in mind the text of the Constitution:

> [T]he right of the people to keep and bear Arms[] shall not be infringed.

The foundation of this discussion is simple: that right shall not be infringed. Courts through US history have respected its value and significance:

> In Nunn v. State, 1Ga. 243, 251 (1846), the Georgia Supreme Court construed the Second Amendment as protecting the “natural right of self-defence” and therefore struck down a ban on carrying pistols openly. Its opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause, in continuity with the English right:

> “The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is, that any law which contravenes this right, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void [...]”

Any law which contravenes this right is repugnant to the Constitution and void. That's a pretty strong statement to make, and it has been reinforced on many occasions.

> In State v. Chandler, 5La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States [...].”

So, why do you believe it was decided wrongly? It seems clear to me that the Second Amendment was intended to protect the individual right to bear arms, not just for military service but for self-defense. The right was seen as necessary for a free society, both in the sense of the strength to resist invasions as well as to resist tyranny of one's own government.

There was dissent in the Heller case, but not about whether the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right. Both of the dissenting votes recognized that it does.

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#119
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will admit that I have mixed feelings about the Second Amendment. As does the Supreme Court; Heller was a 5-4 decision, in which the minority disagreed with the interpretation of the text that you claim is plain and indisputable. Furthermore, "Four times between 1876 and 1939, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to rule that the Second Amendment protected individual gun ownership outside the context of a militia." [0]…

I will admit that I have mixed feelings about the Second Amendment. As does the Supreme Court; Heller was a 5-4 decision, in which the minority disagreed with the interpretation of the text that you claim is plain and indisputable. Wrong. All 9 Supremes interpreted it as an individual right, they could hardly do else so given the written history of all this and the plain language of the Bill of Rights (which amendmen…

> All 9 Supremes interpreted it as an individual right

No. There were two dissents, one by Stevens, one by Breyer. From Wikipedia [0]:

The Stevens dissent seems to rest on four main points of disagreement: that the Founders would have made the individual right aspect of the Second Amendment express if that was what was intended; that the "militia" preamble and exact phrase "to keep and bear arms" demands the conclusion that the Second Amendment touches on state militia service only; that many lower courts' later "collective-right" reading of the Miller decision constitutes stare decisis, which may only be overturned at great peril; and that the Court has not considered gun-control laws (e.g., the National Firearms Act) unconstitutional. The dissent concludes, "The Court would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.... I could not possibly conclude that the Framers made such a choice."

Justice Stevens' dissent was joined by Justices David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer.

Justice Breyer filed a separate dissenting opinion, joined by the same dissenting Justices, which sought to demonstrate that, starting from the premise of an individual-rights view, the District of Columbia's handgun ban and trigger lock requirement would nevertheless be permissible limitations on the right.

You must be thinking of the Breyer dissent. Even that does not stipulate that the right is individual, but just argues that even if it is, the DC law was permissible.

Even people who agree with you on the issue recognize that the Stevens dissent does not support an individual right [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller...

[1] https://reason.com/blog/2010/06/28/justice-john-paul-stevens...

Re: Court: Breaking Your Employer's Computer Policy Isn't a Crime

#120
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will admit that I have mixed feelings about the Second Amendment. As does the Supreme Court; Heller was a 5-4 decision, in which the minority disagreed with the interpretation of the text that you claim is plain and indisputable. Wrong. All 9 Supremes interpreted it as an individual right, they could hardly do else so given the written history of all this and the plain language of the Bill of Rights (which amendmen…

> All 9 Supremes interpreted it as an individual right No. There were two dissents, one by Stevens, one by Breyer. From Wikipedia [0]: The Stevens dissent seems to rest on four main points of disagreement: that the Founders would have made the individual right aspect of the Second Amendment express if that was what was intended; that the "militia" preamble and exact phrase "to keep and bear arms" demands the conclusi…

What you quoted from Wikipedia does not support your contention, nor what the Reason article quoted from Stevens' dissent. You might be right, but we'd have to read the whole dissent and we obviously interpret these words slightly differently. Certainly Stevens does not believe in the standard individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, but he's also not shown to accept the conventional "collective right" interpretation, a logical nullity that cuts against every other use in the Bill of Rights, except as stare dicesis, and the latter is telling unless contradicted by something more specific.

Or to restate, it is my understanding that the dissents accept an "individual right" interpretation in some abstract sense before interpreting the whole as meaning nothing for individuals. Which I'll admit is a fine distinction, but this is from the group that finds a right to what they claim is privacy from the "penumbras" and "emanations" of explicit constitutional rights. So making find distinctions like I think I'm seeing, which don't really make any sense anyway is par for the course.

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