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Pricing Programmers

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Re: Pricing Programmers

#61

Post by Hytosys »

reklawnos wrote: post #57
Hytosys wrote: post #55

>If I create $1M of value for the company, you can compare my price with $1M. Incorrect. If your company were to pay you the same amount as they profit off of you, you wouldn't be sticking around for very long at that company. That's the basic requirement of your company's mode of production. >If the ranges of acceptable don’t overlap, it’s worth stepping back and clarifying what glasses people are using to look at t…

> If your company were to pay you the same amount as they profit off of you [...] That's not quite what he's saying. From the post: > You can never say a price is high or low without asking, “Compared to what?” He's saying that his price can be compared to the value he creates, not that the price should be the same as that value. So in this case, if his price was $1M for $1M of value, then any reasonable person would…

You're right, I think I understand. OP is laying out the metrics dependent on social relations by which one may estimate a sort of "fair" wage.

My rant was tangential to that bullet point but relevant to the second bullet I quoted... so I probably should just remove the accusatory word "incorrect" from my post ;)

Re: Pricing Programmers

#62

Post by gotchange »

lemevi wrote: post #10

For years, from one job in the bay area to the next I worked on products that never made any money and ended up being canceled. Even when I worked on a project that ended up making money I spent a year working on a version that was rebooted from scratch before customers ever saw it. At a couple of startups that never took of afterward I could clearly see the impact that code I wrote was making on sales and value. It…

> I'm not sure why people pay me so much

Why is this sentiment in the community common? I can't really find an explanation for it so far.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#63

Post by gsnedders »

gotchange wrote: post #62
lemevi wrote: post #10

For years, from one job in the bay area to the next I worked on products that never made any money and ended up being canceled. Even when I worked on a project that ended up making money I spent a year working on a version that was rebooted from scratch before customers ever saw it. At a couple of startups that never took of afterward I could clearly see the impact that code I wrote was making on sales and value. It…

> I'm not sure why people pay me so much Why is this sentiment in the community common? I can't really find an explanation for it so far.

It's incredibly pervasive—it's essentially one way of imposer syndrome manifesting itself.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#64

Post by jon-wood »

gizi wrote: post #34
vehementi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others claim other reasons for Google and Facebook's success: how did you determine that your reason is right and theirs are wrong?

I did not say that I believe this because it would be true. Of course, I only believe this because I want to believe this. You see, I am a programmer. So, my belief is that programmers are superior and non-programmers are inferior. So, everything I claim will always further that view. Therefore, my every political move is always aimed at confiscating any possible say or decision power from non-programmers and to ejec…

Wow, I guess there's something to be said for being aware of your own biases at least.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#65

Post by Hytosys »

fengwick3 wrote: post #59
Hytosys wrote: post #55

>If I create $1M of value for the company, you can compare my price with $1M. Incorrect. If your company were to pay you the same amount as they profit off of you, you wouldn't be sticking around for very long at that company. That's the basic requirement of your company's mode of production. >If the ranges of acceptable don’t overlap, it’s worth stepping back and clarifying what glasses people are using to look at t…

> Incorrect. If your company were to pay you the same amount as they profit off of you, you wouldn't be sticking around for very long at that company. That's the basic requirement of your company's mode of production. Why is this a basic requirement? Assuming by "amount they profit off" an employee, you refer to the economic profit (that is to say the profit after taking into account of all economic costs, including…

The capitalist would not be making any money off of the capitalist endeavor if their workers were not being paid less than 100% of their work's value. Incidentally, the economic system is set up in a way to obscure this basic fact. Example:

Say a TV is priced at $100, the raw materials to produce the TV costed $24, and all of the depreciated tools in building the TV costed $1 (the tools wear down, eventually requiring replacement). The labor performed by the worker produced $75 of market value.

If the capitalist pays the worker the fair $75, the capitalist makes nothing off of this whole coordination. Why in the world would the capitalist do that? Not only can the capitalist not take some of the money for themselves, they don't have any money to expand their business. A company that doesn't expand is a company that is eaten alive by companies that do expand. If the worker gets the $75, the capitalist isn't happy, and the capital isn't happy.

$30 goes to investment capital, $20 goes to the capitalist's wallet. The capitalist pays the worker $25.

Software is no exception to this reliable, yet simplified model.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#66

Post by masterzora »

iandanforth wrote: post #45

"In the best case the programmer and the company will both think they are getting a good deal." IMO that is far from the best case. That allows "ignorance is bliss" and, at the other end of the malice spectrum, for one party to be taking advantage of the other. I once sold a rare trading card for $50. I thought I was getting a good deal, the other person knew it was worth much more than that and thought they were get…

"In the best case the programmer and the company will both think they are getting a good deal" is not the same as "if both the programmer and the company both think they are getting a good deal it is the best case." TFA says the former but your post is really about the latter.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#67

Post by jacquesm »

mattlutze wrote: post #44
gizi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not matter whether programming is marketable or not. What matter is that the results of programming, such as Google Search or Facebook, are highly marketable. Mistake number one: never sell yourself. Only sell the result of your efforts, and preferable not to middlemen, but directly to the real buyer. That is how you create hundreds of billions of dollars in value.

You're flooding this comment thread with these posts. A single person didn't build any of these billion dollar companies you're referencing; at some point they had to hire more people, who in turn "sold themselves" by your confused logic, to build the company. Most of these halo companies have non-programmers who were brought in to monetize and grow the value in them. Sheryl Sandberg isn't a programmer nor I think th…

Schmidt actually is a programmer, he re-wrote a good chunk of lex.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#68

Post by mdevere »

Have to say, this reads like he's self-deriving micro-economics for the first time. My very simplistic way of looking at this (not having hired anyone myself) is as follows. If the company has a good strategy and is being run well, than Kent should probably not worry about value created by his new hire because it will dwarf any employee salary. Just make sure you hire the best one you can find and offer him/her a market-beating proposition (which comprises salary, culture, etc.)

Re: Pricing Programmers

#69

Post by xorcist »

gotchange wrote: post #62
lemevi wrote: post #10

For years, from one job in the bay area to the next I worked on products that never made any money and ended up being canceled. Even when I worked on a project that ended up making money I spent a year working on a version that was rebooted from scratch before customers ever saw it. At a couple of startups that never took of afterward I could clearly see the impact that code I wrote was making on sales and value. It…

> I'm not sure why people pay me so much Why is this sentiment in the community common? I can't really find an explanation for it so far.

Because it's one of the most obvious questions to ask about Silicon Valley? You have to pay a hefty premium for programmers that may leave at any time for a better offer.

The rest of the US is a cheaper, Western Europe is cheaper still, and by the time you look at Eastern Europe you'll see that not only can you find programmers that stay on longer, you can actually find experienced ones.

There are literally thousands of blog posts on why or why not Silicon Valley, and the cost of living and hiring are brought up every time.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#70

Post by kashyapc »

Alex3917 wrote: post #2

Programmers are worth $0 because programming isn't a job. It's not even a skill; rather, it's more of an active literacy. Asking how much you should pay a programmer is like asking how much you should pay a telephone user, or how much you should pay a pencil user.

You could not be more wrong.

At least without any further elaboration, your assertion that it's not a job sounds dowright doltish and the following analogy irrelevant.

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