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Pricing Programmers

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Re: Pricing Programmers

#31

Post by vehementi »

gizi wrote: post #26
sl8r wrote: post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

You can never make good money as a programmer, if you let non-programmers pick the subject, or let non-programmers monetize the platform in your stead. Google and Facebook are worth hundreds of billions of dollars exactly because there is not one non-programmer with a say in them.

Others claim other reasons for Google and Facebook's success: how did you determine that your reason is right and theirs are wrong?

Re: Pricing Programmers

#32

Post by slapshot »

sl8r wrote: post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

> out-of-college salaries for programming are often better than virtually everything else (notably, banking and consulting); but after ten years, the opposite is relationship is reversed (considerably so)

Don't forget that there is huge flight from banking and consulting, but much less so for programming. Of 10 people who start as bankers or consultants, 80% will likely leave the industry within 5 years, and 90% within 10 years. So, in a way you're comparing the salary growth of a median programmer to the salary growth of a top 5-10% banker.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#33

Post by cynicalkane »

gizi wrote: post #26
sl8r wrote: post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

You can never make good money as a programmer, if you let non-programmers pick the subject, or let non-programmers monetize the platform in your stead. Google and Facebook are worth hundreds of billions of dollars exactly because there is not one non-programmer with a say in them.

Steve Jobs knew programming, but I wouldn't really call him a "programmer" in the way you're thinking about it.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#34

Post by gizi »

vehementi wrote: post #31
gizi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can never make good money as a programmer, if you let non-programmers pick the subject, or let non-programmers monetize the platform in your stead. Google and Facebook are worth hundreds of billions of dollars exactly because there is not one non-programmer with a say in them.

Others claim other reasons for Google and Facebook's success: how did you determine that your reason is right and theirs are wrong?

I did not say that I believe this because it would be true. Of course, I only believe this because I want to believe this. You see, I am a programmer. So, my belief is that programmers are superior and non-programmers are inferior. So, everything I claim will always further that view. Therefore, my every political move is always aimed at confiscating any possible say or decision power from non-programmers and to eject them out of the game. Seriously, when push comes to shove, I only listen to other programmers. Isn't that obvious?

Re: Pricing Programmers

#35

Post by thedufer »

sl8r wrote: post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

Point 1 makes sense, to the degree that it's true. Programmers are typically too far removed from actual transactions to get paid in the way that sales, bankers, real estate agents, etc. are paid. Thus, measuring what they're actually responsible for is difficult.

To the extent it can be done at that level of abstraction, I'd argue that programmers are actually very over-represented in being paid based on hard outcomes. I haven't heard of any other profession with such a focus on equity grants.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#36

Post by sien »

slapshot wrote: post #32
sl8r wrote: post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

> out-of-college salaries for programming are often better than virtually everything else (notably, banking and consulting); but after ten years, the opposite is relationship is reversed (considerably so) Don't forget that there is huge flight from banking and consulting, but much less so for programming. Of 10 people who start as bankers or consultants, 80% will likely leave the industry within 5 years, and 90% with…

That's an interesting comment. Do sources for those stats and numbers on how many people leave banking? What about programming?

Just searching around doesn't show anything solid up.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#37

Post by gizi »

sl8r wrote: post #30
gizi wrote: post #20

Google and Facebook are factor-11 dollar values (11-zero decimals, aka, hundreds of billions of dollars). The typical programmer will make a 6-zero revenue in his life time. You can create 11-digit value, only if you pick the subject by yourself. A non-programmer has never in history been able to pick an 11-digit subject. Only programmers can create half a trillion dollars in value.

Yeah, piling on: While some tech companies have huge market caps, there are plenty of non-tech companies above the $100B mark. Current top ten includes Exxon Mobil, Berkshire Hathaway, Petro China, Wells Fargo, Johnson & Johnson, ICBC, and Novartis alongside Apple, Google, and Microsoft. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by... )

That was before the year 2000. Ever since, you will no longer get above the $100B unless you are a programmer. Non-programmers no longer stand a chance. You need to eat, sleep, and breathe technology these days. We will soon see the very last non-technology billionaire. Of course, it is a matter of principle for programmers not to turn any non-programmer into a billionaire by doing all the hard work for him. Let him do it instead!

Re: Pricing Programmers

#38

Post by phaus »

cynicalkane wrote: post #33
gizi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can never make good money as a programmer, if you let non-programmers pick the subject, or let non-programmers monetize the platform in your stead. Google and Facebook are worth hundreds of billions of dollars exactly because there is not one non-programmer with a say in them.

Steve Jobs knew programming, but I wouldn't really call him a "programmer" in the way you're thinking about it.

Steve Jobs probably didn't "know" programming.

http://www.woz.org/letters/does-steve-jobs-know-how-code

Re: Pricing Programmers

#39

Post by gizi »

ketralnis wrote: post #6
Alex3917 wrote: post #2

Programmers are worth $0 because programming isn't a job. It's not even a skill; rather, it's more of an active literacy. Asking how much you should pay a programmer is like asking how much you should pay a telephone user, or how much you should pay a pencil user.

If you need someone with programming skills and are willing to pay them, and someone with those skills will work for that amount, that's the price of a programmer. Asserting that the skill is worthless doesn't make sense as long as people will pay for it. Even if you just consider it a form of literacy, scribes absolutely were paid to do their work before literacy was as widespread

The existing platforms on the internet are worth trillions already. The ones that truly work, are built, operated, and owned by programmers. The other ones ultimately only crash and burn. What do we need non-programmers for, in that context? We may pay them to do something menial, but besides that, what else would we need them for?

Re: Pricing Programmers

#40

Post by _ohqz »

lemevi wrote: post #10

For years, from one job in the bay area to the next I worked on products that never made any money and ended up being canceled. Even when I worked on a project that ended up making money I spent a year working on a version that was rebooted from scratch before customers ever saw it. At a couple of startups that never took of afterward I could clearly see the impact that code I wrote was making on sales and value. It…

On that existential tangent, there are times I find it comforting that fools pay me to write code they want written. It's like ghostwriting: it pays the bills. You write a biography for any idiot the way they want it. The 'authors' buy 300,000 copies of their own book through phantom distributors to prop it up to the NYT top 100 list, then they slap their name to it and you go home to your two cats and tell them we don't have to eat garbage tonight.

Other times I yearn working on a popular open-source program or a library or a tool so that I can slap my name to it and actually know what I'm working on, and get some recognition. Or even criticism, because meaningful feedback by peers who actually understand what you do is great.

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