Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#11

Post by skeolawn » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

Well I guess Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, while the US was attempting to find a peaceful solution, so Japan gets the blame.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#12

Post by mikeash » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:08 PM UTC

skeolawn wrote: post #11

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

Well I guess Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, while the US was attempting to find a peaceful solution, so Japan gets the blame.

And let's not forget spending a decade rampaging about China raping and murdering.

So, yeah, it turns out that when a country goes out and commits mass murder for ten years then carries out a surprise attack against another country who thinks they should maybe just cut back a bit on that whole raping-and-murdering thing and has otherwise stuck to their own borders for a couple of decades, the first country gets the blame for the ensuing war. Go figure.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#13

Post by jkyle » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #10

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

I doubt Japan felt threatened by the US because of manifest destiny or the American revolutionary war. I think you're going a bit too far trying to paint the US as appearing unusually hegemonic or aggressive for the time.

Japanese culture perceives time differently than western culture. For example, a train in London is considered "on time" as long as it's within 14 minutes. In Japan, a train is considered late if it's not within 1 minute of schedule. Those perceptions of "lateness" permeate throughout the culture.

I don't claim any authority, but it's important not to project our own views of cultural permanence onto other cultures. Japan has businesses that have spanned over a 1000 years contiguously. I would not be surprised if Japan had a view that spanned much further into the past (particularly during the days of the Emperor).

Oh, just another side. Those are only a couple of examples of Western aggression in the previous century. Europe and the U.S. had been quite active in South East Asia. There likely would have been Japanese alive at the time who had a living memory of events like the colonization of Vietnam.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#14

Post by baddox » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:12 PM UTC

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

It's fair to point out American imperialism and colonialism in the past, and even ongoing to a certain extent in the 1940s, but leading up to the attack on Pearl Harbor it hardly matched the intensity or blatantness of Japan's own imperialism and colonialism, particularly in Manchuria and the Pacific.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#15

Post by ajmurmann » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:12 PM UTC

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

Let's not forget the black ships forcing Japan to open up. Many right wing Japanese still link the entire war period back to that and they do have somewhat of a point.

I strongly recommend Ian Buruma's "Inventing Japan"

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#16

Post by mikeash » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:12 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #4

I'm wondering to what extent the same social and linguistic issues might be behind Japan's political and economic policy paralysis over the last 20+ years.

I'm more wondering what sort of similar things are happening in my (USA) government that I can't perceive because I'm too immersed in it all.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#17

Post by mc32 » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #10

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

I doubt Japan felt threatened by the US because of manifest destiny or the American revolutionary war. I think you're going a bit too far trying to paint the US as appearing unusually hegemonic or aggressive for the time.

Considering the US was way undermilitarized after wwi compared to European nations, it's hard to think Japan would consider the US as an immediate adversary. Specially considering a growing USSR.

Mostly they hoped to take out the US naval fleet and have their way in the pacific while Germany kept the allies busy, and then eventually win in Europe creating a world wide axis.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#18

Post by damienkatz » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:16 PM UTC

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

So if a convicted murderer moves in beside me, it's partially his fault if I attempt to murderer him in his sleep

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#19

Post by pixl97 » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:17 PM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #6

hasenj wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only know the results in hindsight. When you make a decision, you can't guarantee what would happen next.

Yes, but you can use history to make an educated guess about what will happen.

History does not tell you about new things. For example, how will technology affect the outcome of war. Evolution is another such thing. You're poisonous caterpillar that no one can eat, you prosper, then suddenly you get decimated by a bird that can stomach your poison.

Re: Why Japanese leaders attacked Pearl Harbor

#20

Post by woah » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 10:20 PM UTC

damienkatz wrote: post #18

threefour wrote: post #5

This timeline seems to put all the blame on Japan. No doubt they had over-militaristic tendencies. But let's also take the long view on America from Japan's perspective: * Settlers displace native peoples in the north east of North America and the Caribbean. * The first Americans kick out the British. * Americans move west, killing more native peoples. * Americans take over land from Mexico. * "Manifest Destiny" * Am…

So if a convicted murderer moves in beside me, it's partially his fault if I attempt to murderer him in his sleep

It is if there are no legal authorities more powerful than the both of you (as was the case). Actually, your use of the word "convicted" is nonsensical in this case.

The more accurate analogy is if a murderer murders your neighbor, and then moves into his house, and the police don't exist.