Live data from Hacker News

Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

fortune.com

91–100 of 129 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our current economic system holds that people don't deserve food, shelter, medical care, or dignity if they don't have a job. If you believe that we should stick with the current system then the proposition "everyone should have a job" follows from "everyone should have food, shelter, medical care, and dignity".

You had me right up until 'dignity'. You can't give someone dignity.

Of course you can. Dignity is a concept that makes sense only in context of a group of people (a society), and social norms are what gives dignity. If the norms change, the dignity can be taken away.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#92
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect your intensity, but if you were to come home one day finding your home has been broken into by a unfortunate soul demanding that you house and feed him, would you oblige? He may see you as depriving him of food and shelter by not opening your home. Would you be willing to bare this burden?

Would you? This is a ludicrous hypothetical in response to a very simple question: do you or do you not believe all people have a right to the basics of survival and some element of dignity?

I, personally, would like to think, given a nonthreatening human being being discovered in my home, that I would help said person.

I was arrested once, way too fucked up, in someones car. They eventually lended me sandals because I had no shoes or socks.

I am, of course, far more understanding of those in ridiculous situations, having been in many myself. I've calmed down a lot, but unless someone is threatening to kill me, I'll treat a person as someone who has had decades of experiences I have not had.

One day, I hope we can all do that for eachother. We're all human beings. We're all animals. We all deserve to be able to eat, sleep, and have social contact.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#93
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not until such time that people don't need a job to survive. People need an income to survive. Most people get incomes through jobs, some get them through capital holdings, a few get them through other means. > So how do you plan on housing and feeding all of the people who's jobs are displaced through technology? Jobs being displaced through technology means output is produced more effectively without the job than…

"People need an income to survive. Most people get incomes through jobs" Exactly, which makes any quibbling to my statement nothing but worthless pedantry. "Jobs being displaced through technology means output is produced more effectively without the job than it would be with the job, and someone is capturing the value of that output." Which has absolutely nothing to do with my question. "The issue becomes one of dis…

> Exactly, which makes any quibbling to my statement nothing but worthless pedantry.

No, it doesn't. The job is not the need, its just the most common way of satisfying the need.

The need is the income.

Automation of jobs because automation is more efficient means that the economy becomes better at producing output which can be distributed through other existing means of providing income, notably, tax-funded social benefit programs.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our current economic system holds that people don't deserve food, shelter, medical care, or dignity if they don't have a job. If you believe that we should stick with the current system then the proposition "everyone should have a job" follows from "everyone should have food, shelter, medical care, and dignity".

You had me right up until 'dignity'. You can't give someone dignity.

Neither you can give someone laughter, but through your actions you can still make them laugh. Same for dignity, maybe you can't give it directly, but when you treat others with dignity...

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#96
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's called Hobbes' State of Nature [0]. Simply put, it's every person's natural right to do whatever is necessary to provide for themselves. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_nature

And civilization is what happens when we decide to relinquish some parts of this right.

Yep. And civilization is not a natural thing. It must be preserved and maintained. The State of Nature is ever present, threatening and chipping away at society from within.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#97
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "welfare" has negative connotations > People do not like paying welfare. We should work on fighting this perception. Welfare is actually good. There was a time in the past ('30s-'70s) when welfare wasn't a bad word. People liked the idea of welfare. It was a positive idea. That we're still all talking like this, like welfare is a handout to worthless losers, etc is a testament to the success of Reaganite conservati…

The main problem with this line of thinking is that it is materialistic. People get more out of their jobs than money, and just shovelling cash at the unemployed does not make them happy.[1] Most people are happier with a job that pays minimum wage than a welfare program that pays significantly more. [1] http://wol.iza.org/articles/unemployment-and-happiness.pdf

> and just shovelling cash at the unemployed does not make them happy.[1]

It's worth reading the paper past the initial TL;DR bullet points. It goes into interesting discussion about what exactly it is about unemployment that makes people unhappy. Some quotes from the middle of the article:

"There is plenty of evidence in support of the hypothesis that the evaluative component of well-being depends on how much one conforms to or deviates from the norms of the social group one associates with. For unemployment, this means that the harmful effect of unemployment on life satisfaction is larger the stronger the prevailing norm toward work is. (...)

There is additional evidence in support of the importance of social norms to the degree of life satisfaction of people who are unemployed. A German study finds that unemployed people report a substantial increase in life satisfaction when they retire, although other life circumstances remain largely unchanged [10]. The study interprets retirement as a switch in the social group with which one identifies, from the working-age population to retirees, and thus to a change in the social work norm. Once an individual has retired, not working no longer violates the social work norm, and life satisfaction consequently increases. (...)

The potential felt scarcities and worries associated with unemployment are manifold. They include fewer social contacts, less social recognition, less money, a less structured day, less control of one’s life, and less certainty about what the future will bring. Indeed, although the effect on happiness of temporary income reductions during unemployment is not very large, people who are unemployed worry about their future economic uncertainty."

--

I think it's still possible that unemployeds' unhappiness is caused by the work-centric culture and economy. Being shoveled money at is problematic, because you're getting for free what society expects you to get by work. Consider the ultimate welfare we all get - sunlight, breathable air. No one feels inadequate or sad because they're receiving it for free. It's part of the environment. We assume air and sun are always there, will always be there, and are available to everyone without having to work for it. I think food and shelter are things we should actually try and push to the environmental level, i.e. have it available for free and to everyone, unconditionally.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#98
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And civilization is what happens when we decide to relinquish some parts of this right.

Yep. And civilization is not a natural thing. It must be preserved and maintained. The State of Nature is ever present, threatening and chipping away at society from within.

It's easy to miss if you're born in a functioning civilization, because it feels that peace and order are the natural state - so maintaining civilization feels like unnecessary effort, and damaging it for your own benefit feels like a good deal.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#99
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The curse of machinery! http://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/chap07p1.html

What happens when we start replacing men with electronic minds? There is a particular class of problems of a 'machine economy' where machines produce products for machines, the machines can use the economic product more efficiently (at making the capital owners more profit), and humans are cut out of the loop. The last chapter of the essay points out the issue, not that machines take jobs, that machines can and will…

> There is a particular class of problems of a 'machine economy' where machines produce products for machines, the machines can use the economic product more efficiently (at making the capital owners more profit), and humans are cut out of the loop.

Or, as the SSC poetically puts it[0]:

I broke my back lifting Moloch to Heaven, and all I got was this lousy Disneyland with no children.

The post quotes Bostrom considering exactly this scenario, where in the end the economy, having optimized humans out of the loop, keeps running and generating wealth, with no conscious mind to enjoy it.

[0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: Silicon Valley Is Not Driving Jobs Growth

#100
post #85
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect your intensity, but if you were to come home one day finding your home has been broken into by a unfortunate soul demanding that you house and feed him, would you oblige? He may see you as depriving him of food and shelter by not opening your home. Would you be willing to bare this burden?

Good analogy. You've framed it in a way that makes it sound like this person has infringed my rights. But what right of mine is he infringing, specifically? The right to own property and keep it secure when I am not around? That's a positive right, not a negative one.

Property rights are the prototypical example of a negative right, so you seem to be defining the concept in a non-standard way.

I think the names are poorly chosen, though. A "negative" right is one for which a specific "violater" can always be identified. If you are stolen from, then someone stole from you. A "positive" right is one in which the only identifiable culprit is "everyone" or "society". If you don't have enough to eat, it's because society didn't provide a way for you to feed yourself; it's not that specific person's fault because they didn't hand over their sandwich.

This seems to be the main point of disagreement between us. You seem to be saying that if someone doesn't have enough to eat, then it is everyone else's fault individually. My point of view is that it's possible for someone to go hungry without it being anyone's fault in particular; it's just the result of a bad system. Maybe you're morally obligated to try to improve the system, but you're not morally obligated to give away everything you have to anyone who asks.

Post reply on HN