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Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

politico.eu

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Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#31

Post by TinyRick »

jacquesm wrote: post #3

“Talking about it in practical terms, the answer is to target the people which you know are up to bad stuff rather than bringing in the 99.8 percent of the inhabitants there, including the vast majority of followers of Islam, who have no intention whatsoever of conducting a terrorist attack,” Are there any other terms than 'practical'? Better late than never I guess. What's funny is that this was not exactly new know…

>>All these idiotically named acts ('patriot act', 'freedom act') are named that way so that if you're against them it looks as if you're either not a patriot or against freedom.

I believe the names of these acts are acronyms:

USA Freedom Act [0] = Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet-collection and Online Monitoring Act

USA Patriot Act [1] = Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#32

Post by jacquesm »

barrkel wrote: post #29
acqq wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we have 10,000 other people who are associated with militant Islamits in our database "And for who even Russians spent their energy to notify us"? I'd expect that most of the 10,000 others aren't on the list because Russians notify the FBI. Or you know more than I do, and I'd be glad to learn. Or maybe the warning was ignored because of the Tsarnaev's uncle? http://backchannel.al-monitor.com/index.php/2013/04/5090…

Interestingly, the "Terrorist Watch List" reached 1 million in 2009: [...] It seems your estimate was two orders of magnitude off. This doesn't strengthen your assertions.

And technically we're all on the 'terrorist watch list' since we're all being watched. Just on the off chance we convert into a terrorist I guess.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#33

Post by acqq »

barrkel wrote: post #29
acqq wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we have 10,000 other people who are associated with militant Islamits in our database "And for who even Russians spent their energy to notify us"? I'd expect that most of the 10,000 others aren't on the list because Russians notify the FBI. Or you know more than I do, and I'd be glad to learn. Or maybe the warning was ignored because of the Tsarnaev's uncle? http://backchannel.al-monitor.com/index.php/2013/04/5090…

Interestingly, the "Terrorist Watch List" reached 1 million in 2009: [...] It seems your estimate was two orders of magnitude off. This doesn't strengthen your assertions.

>> Interestingly

> This doesn't strengthen your assertions

Which assertions have I claimed that the "interesting" detail supports? Or what should that "interestingly" mean more than the interesting detail?

A million is surely a less expected figure, it's equivalent to 1 of every 300 people across the whole US (!) Now imagine how many people you see in one day in the NY, for example. It's really thought provoking.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#34

Post by jacquesm »

TinyRick wrote: post #31
jacquesm wrote: post #3

“Talking about it in practical terms, the answer is to target the people which you know are up to bad stuff rather than bringing in the 99.8 percent of the inhabitants there, including the vast majority of followers of Islam, who have no intention whatsoever of conducting a terrorist attack,” Are there any other terms than 'practical'? Better late than never I guess. What's funny is that this was not exactly new know…

>>All these idiotically named acts ('patriot act', 'freedom act') are named that way so that if you're against them it looks as if you're either not a patriot or against freedom. I believe the names of these acts are acronyms: USA Freedom Act [0] = Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet-collection and Online Monitoring Act USA Patriot Act [1] = Uniting and Strengtheni…

Yes, but you can bet the acronyms were thought of before they named the act. Or do you really believe those acronyms spell 'PATRIOT' and 'FREEDOM' by chance?

See also the 'Supreme Head of Intelligence Targeting'.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#35

Post by acqq »

jacquesm wrote: post #32
barrkel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the "Terrorist Watch List" reached 1 million in 2009: [...] It seems your estimate was two orders of magnitude off. This doesn't strengthen your assertions.

And technically we're all on the 'terrorist watch list' since we're all being watched. Just on the off chance we convert into a terrorist I guess.

Well the article quotes the given number for the list with the given name, so we're technically all on some other list with some other name. But 1 from every 300 US inhabitants is on that specific list.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#36

Post by acqq »

Retric wrote: post #23
acqq wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my argument is that the Boston bomber warning from the Russian authorities doesn't appear like a typical "noise," at last for somebody just reading the news, like me. I admit I don't know how many such warnings come from Russia, but I doubt it's really something overwhelming, especially compared to collecting every phone record of everybody, if you know more I'm surely interested.

Sure, and in this case they actually conducted an interview. So, we had an FBI guy in the same room with a future terrorist. But, the attack still happened. Which points to a wider issue, sure he was suspicious, but then what?

> Which points to a wider issue, sure he was suspicious, but then what?

That's exactly the question to which Europe also searches for the answer now.

One of the reasons everybody bends over backwards to avoid saying anything against the religions in different countries is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

"In some European countries is the crime of "religious insult", which is a subset of the crime of blasphemy. It is forbidden in Andorra, Cyprus, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Spain, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Lithuania, Norway, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Switzerland, Turkey and Ukraine.[30]"

"The report noted that, in Europe, blasphemy is an offense only in Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Italy, Liechtenstein, the Netherlands, and San Marino.[contradiction]"

Human rights be damned as long as the religions teach against them, you can't call a spade a spade. It would be insulting.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#37

Post by DougWebb »

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Moslem army must defeat. The terrorist acts are intended to force this battle to commence, which they are confident they will win.

If they really believe this, I'm stunned at how oblivious they are. If an all-out battle really took place, they wouldn't face an army. They'd face an airforce that'd be a lot more aggressive than the one they're currently facing. The US and Russia could turn Syria into a sheet of radioactive glass if they wanted to / had to in order to "win armageddon". The only reason ISIS is able to continue to exist is because of our tolerance and compassion.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#38

Post by mc32 »

jacquesm wrote: post #30
mc32 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting valid point, still, the terrorists don't actually care how we deal with things internally. In other words they are not concerned with our behavioral changes and whether they lead to an erosion of liberty or not. Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be.

> Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be. Yes, but we don't actually have to help them to further their goals.

If they only care about their world and to further their own goals in the middle east and don't actually care about the west directly (we are a pretext), and don't plan to extend their power beyond their historic influence, how would anything happening in the west be to their benefit?

They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". It's already the enemy, so what benefit is it to them we have self inflicted wounds, unless they have sights on expanding their dominion to the west?

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#39

Post by jacquesm »

mc32 wrote: post #38
jacquesm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be. Yes, but we don't actually have to help them to further their goals.

If they only care about their world and to further their own goals in the middle east and don't actually care about the west directly (we are a pretext), and don't plan to extend their power beyond their historic influence, how would anything happening in the west be to their benefit? They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". It's al…

> They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy".

Oh, we absolutely can. See, we could be a passive enemy and that would be good for them, but not as good as an enemy that actually engages. That's what drives the spiral of polarization and demonization. Without the spiral it stops at the first level and their recruiting power is reduced accordingly.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#40

Post by swayvil »

Retric wrote: post #2

The real problem is flagging 0.2% of the population is useless when 0.00001% of the population is terrorists. If everything works perfectly your people end up investigating 1,000 innocent people in a row which trains them that everything is a false positive. The 9/11 hijackers and the Boston marathon bombers where both flagged yet the attacks still happened in large part because there was simply far to much noise fro…

The solution is to reduce the noise level.

We need new laws that address common speech and behavior. We would expand the rules that govern airports and government buildings to enclose everything and everyone always.

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