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Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

mikehadlow.blogspot.com

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Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#51

Post by lloyd-christmas »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #2

If a only a small portion of the population will be adept at programming, and training is less important, then it's likely that most of the potential talent does not have formal training incompetent science. Therefore, coding schools should give a second opportunity for those tho did not study computer science in a formal university setting. Learning to code may help reveal those very people.

I was a Math/Econ double major with a minor in applied statistics. I did the finance path for 6 years before choosing to go back and do a boot camp. I've done very well since then, although it's likely due to my educational background. None of this describes the average student, but I think my case reinforces your point about opportunities. If the program didn't exist, I'd still be trading equities and contributing very little to society.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#52

Post by joshcanhelp »

discardorama wrote: post #28

Coding requires a mindset that some people just don't have, or haven't developed yet. Ask any TA who has taught the basic "intro to CS" courses, and you'll hear lots of anecdotes which show that some people just don't get it. Here's an example: Q: write a program that reads 2 numbers from standard input, and outputs their sum. For example: First number: 3 Second number: 7 Sum is: 10 Here's a solution someone submitte…

There was a paper published about exactly this, summarized by Jeff Atwood [1]. Essentially, there appears, according to the authors, that there is a mindset that people either have or don't have that allows them to understand the very basics (variable assignment, iteration, etc) before they've had any training at all. Students were tested before 3 weeks of education and after and the results were essentially the same: the ones that got it in the beginning were the same ones that got it at the end.

This supports the original article in one way by saying that it's not for everyone and bootcamps for the general public are not going to help much, but it contradicts the secondary point which is that we should be convincing potential doctors and lawyers to start learning CS. Programming aptitude doesn't start with intelligence or background, rather from something innate.

[1] http://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-fr...

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#53

Post by dasboth »

teh_klev wrote: post #30
amelius wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I liken coding to playing a musical instrument. Except with a musical instrument, anybody can judge whether you are good at it. Not so with programming. Everybody who ever wrote one line of HTML can call themself a programmer, but only trained people can tell whether you are a good one. You might say at this point: so what? But I think the distinction is important, because it may be the reason the "driving force" i…

Counterpoint, I can knock out a first class "Stairway to Heaven" in the local electric guitar shop simply by remembering where my fingers should be but not having any clue about what chords and notes they are. Can I be judged to be an accomplished musician upon that sole rendition?

Of course not. There isn't really a programming equivalent though. I guess you could memorise the syntax for one specific, complicated program and you're right, that wouldn't make you a programmer.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#54

Post by beachstartup »

paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

well, it's a gradient, and the only way to move up is years of practice.

i liken it to any skilled trade. you can probably fix your kitchen table or change the brake rotor on your car but you're probably not qualified to work at a bespoke furniture shop or the porsche dealership - but you could be, if you really tried, or if you got lucky. and if you did get lucky, you could probably figure it out with some help.

some people just can't do these things, no matter how hard they try. they simply don't possess the aptitude, or iq, or whatever you want to call it. maybe just plain old discipline.

the interesting thing about programming to me is it's easy to lose - i'm totally unqualified to do anything serious these days because for the past 5 years i've spent most of my time running a business and doing 'housekeeping' technical (sysadmin, very light dev, some ops stuff) tasks that i don't want my senior devs to do.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#55

Post by sklogic »

sotojuan wrote: post #16
dudul wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that CS grads who do not spend some time learning practical skills on the side are idiots and completely misunderstand the industry they are trying to enter. Bootcamps claim that they can help people who lack the proper foundations or the discipline to learn on their own, these are assets that CS students should have, they should therefore apply their knowledge and training to learn on their own the too…

> I would argue that CS grads who do not spend some time learning practical skills on the side are idiots and completely misunderstand the industry they are trying to enter. I agree, but then I realize I live in a bubble. Here and in /r/cscareerquestions, everyone knows to do side projects. In my school, most people don't. Neither do my friends in other schools. They may get one internship but that's the only "practi…

> more practicality in CS curriculum

Rename it to SE first and stop pretending it's a "science". Or, alternatively, accept that it's really a science and stop moaning about the careers in the industry. There'll be a lot to moan around the grants, post-doc positions, publish or perish and all the other funny parts of an academic career.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#56

Post by eloff »

Alex3917 wrote: post #33
gabemart wrote: post #13

I feel like the discussion around this post will suffer from a lack of specificity over what a 'software developer' is. Someone who works primarily on small javascript web applications has a really different job from someone who works on a large application built on a LAMP stack, or someone who writes complex iOS applications, or someone designs self-driving car software for Google, or someone who works on embedded s…

> Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. I think the commonality is that at the minimum you need to be able to read English at a proficient level, which weeds out the vast majority of American adults.

The vast majority of adults can't read English well? Let's get real here, that's not even close to the truth.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#57

Post by dagw »

sotojuan wrote: post #16
dudul wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that CS grads who do not spend some time learning practical skills on the side are idiots and completely misunderstand the industry they are trying to enter. Bootcamps claim that they can help people who lack the proper foundations or the discipline to learn on their own, these are assets that CS students should have, they should therefore apply their knowledge and training to learn on their own the too…

> I would argue that CS grads who do not spend some time learning practical skills on the side are idiots and completely misunderstand the industry they are trying to enter. I agree, but then I realize I live in a bubble. Here and in /r/cscareerquestions, everyone knows to do side projects. In my school, most people don't. Neither do my friends in other schools. They may get one internship but that's the only "practi…

Perhaps we need to stress a bit more practicality in CS curriculum?

No, we need to stop telling people who want a career in web development to get a degree in Computer Science. And universities should stop convincing people who really want to be software engineers to study computer science. If you want to work as a structural engineer you'll probably get a degree in structural or mechanical engineering. You don't get a degree in theoretical physics and complain that since structural engineering is just a practical application of theoretical physics your physics curriculum really should be more focused on practical engineering.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#58

Post by duiker101 »

hashkb wrote: post #3

Also, shoveling bootcampers into the industry is bad for real engineers and the quality of their software. Management everywhere is lowering the bar so they can hit their hiring goals and pretending the consequences are natural.

I agree. Which is what could be happening with companies like zenfit. http://uk.businessinsider.com/zenefits-ceo-refutes-the-naysa...

I can't possibly believe that with so many new hires the quality doesn't go down. And with the quality of the hires, also the product quality will inevitably go down.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#59

Post by mildbow »

mattmanser wrote: post #35
paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

Err, yeah, you could work as a professional programmer if you wanted to. You can code. The whole point the article is trying to get across is that a lot of people are simply unable to learn how to code. You've learnt. You CAN become a professional. You just don't realize it. The step you've taken is the hard one. In fact, there's another big dirty secret in programming. A load of professional programmers aren't able…

Random dude who learns basic scripting says he's not good enough to be a software dev -> people chime in disagreement.

But, try to actually take them up on the offer and you'll probably find yourself jumping through programming interviews that will scoff at your basic skills.

Most of us got started writing little scripts. It's definitely a great start. To say that he could work as a professional programmer now is ridiculous. Could he have a career if he put in the time? Maybe. Can he get a job? Maybe. But, it's not the slam dunk these people are suggesting.

Note that I'm not even differentiating getting past interviews vs actually doing the work. I think either would be a stretch from writing a few scripts.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#60

Post by okaramian »

hashkb wrote: post #3

Also, shoveling bootcampers into the industry is bad for real engineers and the quality of their software. Management everywhere is lowering the bar so they can hit their hiring goals and pretending the consequences are natural.

I feel like this should be true, but in my experience it hasn't been. We've hired interns who become full-time at some point, both CS grads and bootcampers.

As a note, the bootcampers we've hired have been people with a little bit of programming experience (not a ton, generally they did it as part of a previous job) that wanted to switch careers. The ones we've hired have been around 24/25, with about a year of experience in a different field like chemistry or geology.

The CS interns were college kids, so it could just be a function of maturity. I think of the ones we've brought in for internships, 2 were hirable (we've brought in maybe a dozen or so over the last couple of years). One of the 2 hirables is someone who I think will have a great career over the long run.

The bootcampers we've hired (thus far two) have been a measure above the CS kids. The CS kids have had a level of entitlement that I think is hindering them. It feels like because they've gotten a job they're set and they don't really need to learn more, when they have a long road to go down. This has been a pretty typical pattern and it didn't feel like they had the will to push themselves despite the fact that many seemed like they were very intelligent.

The bootcampers were older so they seemed to have that will and curiosity, none of them took the job for granted. One of them seemed to be falling behind, he was told that, and spent a lot of time outside of work learning the things he didn't know and has been great.

I understand anecdotes can only be taken so far, but just a couple of observations I felt like sharing.

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