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The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

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Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So do you include the future and the past? Yes. I think the point of confusion is around "universality". I'm not talking about a unanimous agreement on preference between people born and unborn, I'm talking about attributes that define kindness (the set theory kind, not the Disney princess kind). I was hoping to make that clear with the perfect circle bit, but I wasn't aware of contention on the issue... pretend I…

If "life is preferable to death" were a universal attribute of all humans resulting from a biological imperative, no one would ever choose to end their life. I suspect any other proposed "universal attribute" -- at least one that take the form of a universal preference -- will fail to correspond with reality in the same way.

> all things being equal and outside of coercion.

I think that covers mental illness, war, dying in a fire while rescuing kittens, emo cutting, etc.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#52
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "life is preferable to death" were a universal attribute of all humans resulting from a biological imperative, no one would ever choose to end their life. I suspect any other proposed "universal attribute" -- at least one that take the form of a universal preference -- will fail to correspond with reality in the same way.

> all things being equal and outside of coercion. I think that covers mental illness, war, dying in a fire while rescuing kittens, emo cutting, etc.

I don't think it covers any cases of voluntary suicide not motivated by percieved impacts on others, irrespective of mental illness. Unless you define coercion so broadly that the whole statement becomes meaningless.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#53
post #50
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether a preference is universal is sufficiently impractical to ascertain with certainty (especially since you have said you want to include the preferences of people in the past), such that any belief about the existence of any universal preferences is inherently subjective.

I'm not talking about whimsical preference, I'm talking about group membership defining attributes - preferences that make one a human being and that every other human has or will share. And yes, this would define a human being even in a world were no human ever existed or will exist.

So... you are talking about preferences that 'define a human being', but then those preferences are only tautologically universal (since you are excluding any possible exception). This seems absurd.

So if I were to tell you that I really did prefer to be a slave you would say I am not human? You are excluding as 'human' any individual who are not capable of understanding the concept of 'ownership'. Do you seriously believe that babies and the severely mentally handicapped are not human?

If you are operating with such a divergent notion of 'human' (and thus 'morality', 'universal' and 'preference') then there is no point in having any further discussion with you or considering anything you have to say.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all things being equal and outside of coercion. I think that covers mental illness, war, dying in a fire while rescuing kittens, emo cutting, etc.

I don't think it covers any cases of voluntary suicide not motivated by percieved impacts on others, irrespective of mental illness. Unless you define coercion so broadly that the whole statement becomes meaningless.

>> all things being equal

If you could stop the pain without dying, would you still kill yourself?

If you could escape depression without dying, would you still kill yourself?

If you could find meaning in your existence without dying, would you still kill yourself?

If you could go to heaven (or whatever magic place you believe is better than your present situation) without dying, would you still kill yourself?

If you could kill yourself without dying, would you still kill yourself? (Weird I know, but for the sake of completeness)

Did I miss any good reasons to kill yourself?

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#55
post #46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your hypothetical situation depends on the dimension of time So do you include the future and the past? If you include the future it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to determine the universality of a principle. If you don't include the future, that means that it is possible for the universality of a principle to change. Then As soon as one person is born who doesn't share a principle, the moral character…

> So do you include the future and the past? Yes. I think the point of confusion is around "universality". I'm not talking about a unanimous agreement on preference between people born and unborn, I'm talking about attributes that define kindness (the set theory kind, not the Disney princess kind). I was hoping to make that clear with the perfect circle bit, but I wasn't aware of contention on the issue... pretend I…

Please provide a single example of when "all things being equal and outside of coercion" (using your extremely broad definition of 'coercion') a human made a choice to live rather than die.

Or is your 'universal attribute' some sort of 'ideal' that doesn't actually ever happen and thus is completely useless for defining the set of 'human' and 'not human', let alone 'moral' and 'immoral'.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#56
post #53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about whimsical preference, I'm talking about group membership defining attributes - preferences that make one a human being and that every other human has or will share. And yes, this would define a human being even in a world were no human ever existed or will exist.

So... you are talking about preferences that 'define a human being', but then those preferences are only tautologically universal (since you are excluding any possible exception). This seems absurd. So if I were to tell you that I really did prefer to be a slave you would say I am not human? You are excluding as 'human' any individual who are not capable of understanding the concept of 'ownership'. Do you seriously b…

Nope, exceptions get their own subclass. Babies would be baby-humans, the mentally ill would be - well you get the idea. These classes are actually a predictable reality given an accurate definition of "human being", a component of the whole. Imagine a dependency graph, with the edge cases as leaf nodes. So the definition of human isn't related to a single entity, or the averaging of the qualities of the entire population - it is related to the attributes that give rise to the entire structure - seed values. Again, this has nothing to do with time, so "give rise to" is more like a logical conclusion than a sequence of events.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#57
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So do you include the future and the past? Yes. I think the point of confusion is around "universality". I'm not talking about a unanimous agreement on preference between people born and unborn, I'm talking about attributes that define kindness (the set theory kind, not the Disney princess kind). I was hoping to make that clear with the perfect circle bit, but I wasn't aware of contention on the issue... pretend I…

Please provide a single example of when "all things being equal and outside of coercion" (using your extremely broad definition of 'coercion') a human made a choice to live rather than die. Or is your 'universal attribute' some sort of 'ideal' that doesn't actually ever happen and thus is completely useless for defining the set of 'human' and 'not human', let alone 'moral' and 'immoral'.

Sure, you woke up and didn't kill yourself. As did most every human being that has ever existed, because humans don't do that outside of very strange circumstances that are out of their control.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#58

They lead one to ask if our inability to effectively address mass surveillance constitutes a failure of our field. I believe that it does. I call for a community-wide effort to develop more effective means to resist mass surveillance. What's funny is that you could talk to any number of law enforcement officials who believe that the moral failing is on the cryptography community for not providing a "backdoor" into en…

> What's funny is that you could talk to any number of law enforcement officials who believe that the moral failing is on the cryptography community for not providing a "backdoor" into encrypted communications.

There were also any number of people who justified the use of the Atomic Bomb because it lessened the predicted number of losses incurred in the Pacific theater of war. This didn't stop the creators of the bomb from believing it was still better to opt for peace instead of it's continued use to lessen the total number of casualties in future wars.

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#59
> This makes cryptography an inherently political tool.

It always was.

Many developers like to stay out of politics. Concentrating on difficult technical problems is hard enough; adding in politics is therefor adding in unnecessary complexity. As the wonderful Tom Lehrer put it in his song "Wernher Von Braun"[1],

    Don't say that he's hypocritical,
    Say rather that he's apolitical.

    "once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
    That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.
The problem with this is similar to the problem of abstaining from the vote: it's absolutely not a neutral position. Choosing to abstain from politics in general, like those that choose to abstain from the vote, is de facto a vote for the status quo and majority rule.

Not only is cryptography an inherently political tool, almost all software is political.

Software does not exist in a vacuum; the entire point of most software is that it has an impact on business, society, and the world. With the discovery of the General Purpose Computer, this impact can be very large.

It's easy to see why cryptography disrupts existing power structures. It should be similarly easy to see how software already overturned the traditional power structures in places like the stock market, manufacturing, and retail.

So please, consider what impact your software might have when you are writing it, or if someone already has a goal in mind. Maybe, in some cases, it's better to walk away. It;'s a hard question, but the answer is not to say "I'm staying out of politics". To quote Quinn Norton and Eleanor Saitta from their talk[2] at 30c3, there is "no neutral ground in a burning world".

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro#t=16

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWg2qEEa9CE

Re: The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work

#60
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your opponent condones torture, indefinite imprisonment of innocents, war crimes, and genocide, there is little point in having anbopen dialog or argument with them.

There are many people that don't condone those things but still think law enforcement should be able to get into people's computers or read communications with a warrant. It's more nuanced than you would like to believe.

Nauance is really serving all those blacks in jail for fabricated evidence.

Nauance has done wonders for the people of Syria.

Nauanc as in "disposition matrix" instead of targeted assassinations.

Sometimes things are so nauanced hospitals filled with doctors without borders get bombed, so nuanced we may not even consider it a war crime!

But do on about how much more nuanced the world really is, how incredibly morally bankrupt, what weak moral fiber to defend torture through the weasel words of nauace, the millions of dead surely are glad for such a reasonable and nauceced view you present.

Again, debating people who condone torture and mass murder is a waste of time.

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