Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#261

Post by rmxt » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #260

rmxt wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking you to provide evidence that "#BLM", if it can even really be considered a cohesive movement with a defined purpose, supports or performs home invasions. And, evidence that the NAACP openly supports or harbors criminals would be welcome, too. I'll be waiting, but not holding my breath. At a minimum, your statement lacks nuance. At worst, and more likely, it is factually incorrect and smears groups with le…

I don't think you are arguing in good faith judging by the size of strawman you have to build.

There is no strawman. This is the claim that you've made:

"The opposite, though, happens all the time."

The original claim is 'police break into houses and no one calls local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs.' The opposite claim is therefore that '"local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs" break into houses and people call the police'. I've conceded that local gangs may break into houses, and now I'm asking you to justify the assertion that "NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs" (it's NAACP, BTW) break into houses. Do you have sources that show that people operating under the NCAAP/#BLM banner actually break into houses? If you don't have information that suggests that, why do you make such an offhanded claim?

How is this trolling? How is this not a good faith argument? My distillation of your claims is that "blacks commit crimes, so black special interest groups must also be bastions of criminality." If that's not your point, then what is?

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#262

Post by pandaman » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 5:31 PM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #261

pandaman wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are arguing in good faith judging by the size of strawman you have to build.

There is no strawman. This is the claim that you've made: "The opposite, though, happens all the time." The original claim is 'police break into houses and no one calls local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs.' The opposite claim is therefore that '"local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs" break into houses and people call the police'. I've conceded that local gangs may break into houses, and now I'm asking…

No, the opposite claim is "Blacks are breaking into houses and people are calling police". The organizations listed are ones that represent Blacks and since there is no number similar to 911 to call generic Blacks you'd need to call one of those to have an experience similar to calling police if we want to compare Blacks and police like the message I replied did.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#263

Post by tptacek » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

The SPLC has retracted their links to this story amidst doubts about its veracity.

https://twitter.com/splcenter/status/672466511886422018

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#264

Post by tedks » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 3:24 AM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #232

jensen123 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you are correct that there is a lot of racism here and there. However, there is also a lot of rabid anti-racism. For example, you'll never read an article in the mainstream press about how blacks, on average, have lower IQs than white people, although this clearly is relevant in the whole crime debate. Why are blacks more likely to commit crimes than whites? The IQ explains a lot, but mentioning it is taboo,…

I have noticed a lot of this "scientific racism" junk creeping into HN lately. It's a little worrying to see it on a tech forum like this.

It used to be that extreme groups kept to themselves and were pretty quickly ostracized because of their extremism. Most people in San Diego wouldn't join Heaven's Gate, and the group wouldn't be able to spread very far because the further it reached, the more pushback it would see.

On the Internet, that isn't really true. There are always enough people who can be convinced of the merit of an idea, and so extreme groups continue to grow in size. As they do this, the overlap between any given extreme group and other groups grows, because the extreme group is growing. This means that their ideas metastasize out into the population as a whole.

Scientific racism, neo-reactionaryism, monarchism, even just defiant "political incorrectness" and "I'm no SWJ"-ness. The heightened availability of all of these ideas produces the same, as group polarization (a technical term in social psychology) happens on a scale never before seen. This is hardly limited to the right wing; liberal-identified Tumblr users are more behaviourally restrictive than most of the anarchist-communists I knew in college, even though the "safe-space" rhetoric of the current liberal milieu originates from more radical activist circles.

Expect to see more scientific racism on hacker news; hacker news is a fundamentally more friendly platform for racist and misogynistic viewpoints because women and people of color are so underrepresented and the focus on "objectivity" and "data" mean that a shoddy study that is the very essence of scientific racism can beat out the stories of however many women or PoC dare to speak out, only to be shouted down.

Most of the people making these comments would probably be fairly reasonable had you both been born 20 years earlier (or possibly later, if the world grows more sane) and met at a party. Few people set out to become a scientific racist, they just see an article linked (possibly by a Stormfront member, who knows) that "just makes sense to them"; they believe it and internalize it; when they see future statements they are more likely to remember those they agree with and forget those that disagree with their existing outlook; gradually, they become more and more "awakened" to the "racial reality" of the world until finally they're posting on Neoreactionary News about how they've finally realized democracy is degenerate and women should never have been allowed to vote.

And those people write your software.

Worried is the least you should be.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#265

Post by markman » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 4:34 AM UTC

I'm reading these comments somewhat in disbelief. Put the torches down people. You know it took me the better part of 40 years to realize that if one is the greatest guy in the world 95% of the time and a complete asshole 5% of the time guess what that makes you? A complete asshole. Especially ally to the people that only see you during that 5%.

Well the same holds true for the police. These travesty could and probably is only perpetrated by a tiny percentage of officers yet Now with the release of this story(has anyone -confirmed it's legitimacy?) at least those commenting have already confirmed judged and condemned the bulk of every police department in the nation as shoot to kill monstrous overlords. I'm sorry but that's just not the case.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#266

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #252

jessaustin wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably missing something essential about your argument, but does this thread require a proof that racism is bad? Observing that various parties benefit from it is not an admission that it is of general benefit.

Let's go back to the beginning. I argued that what's going on with the police is that they're used by the higher classes as a tool of defense/oppression against the lower ones. I don't think race is of any direct relevance to this phenomenon. You argued (as I understand things) that the motivation for forming the police was usually "racist", and that it made more sense to view the depredations of police as race issue…

Sorry for the hiatus in discussion; I have broken two fingers. I don't think I have the typing stamina to get to all of that, but to react to your last question: when a social arrangement has racist effects, that social arrangement is racist, and will improve by becoming less so. Although you haven't really defined "class" here, one couldn't make the same statement about any sense of "class" without some caveats.

Your example seems to be a largely static one, which is neither realistic nor particularly illuminating. Policing like any "modern" phenomenon is relatively recent, so we should examine the entire narrative of effects rather than taking a snapshot and presuming it to encompass the whole range of possible experience.

Race admits to much less mobility than most other pretexts for oppression. That is bad because it makes society less agile, and because it kills hope and confidence. Both of those emotions are entirely beneficial, so their loss in any subgroup is harmful.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#267

Post by Frondo » Sat, Dec 05, 2015, 9:31 PM UTC

tedks wrote: post #264

Frondo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have noticed a lot of this "scientific racism" junk creeping into HN lately. It's a little worrying to see it on a tech forum like this.

It used to be that extreme groups kept to themselves and were pretty quickly ostracized because of their extremism. Most people in San Diego wouldn't join Heaven's Gate, and the group wouldn't be able to spread very far because the further it reached, the more pushback it would see. On the Internet, that isn't really true. There are always enough people who can be convinced of the merit of an idea, and so extreme gro…

Wow. Well said.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#268

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 4:07 PM UTC

csn wrote: post #255

jessaustin wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False positives... The only valid reason to draw a firearm is defense of life. If there are security robots around, one doesn't need to defend oneself or one's companions. (It's true that life may be threatened by tools of violence other than firearms, but robots might be trained to look for those as well.) Besides, by "incapacitate" I don't mean double-tap, rather something reversible like an enveloping foam etc. ..…

By false positives I meant non-firearm objects which the robot recognises to be firearms, and incapaciting brought tasers to mind. I am probably looking at this problem through smaller-and-safer-country specs, Here police shootings are really rare, but so are other kinds of shootings. I thought of bots with high mobility due to the recent advancements in that sector, which would in my opinion make much more sense her…

Congratulations on not living in a nation that has caught the mass-murder-mania. b^)

It might not make economic sense yet, but the trend only goes one direction. Electronic devices get cheaper and more capable over time. Robocop might not ever make sense, because that is a very complicated use case. However, a constellation of devices charged with enforcing a single rule, "no human hands may hold a firearm in this set of rooms", is already nearly within reach of current technology.