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why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?
To spread the common memetic and rhetorical foundation required for rational discussions of contradictory sources of information and conflicting ideas. To make civilized society possible.
why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?
Anecdote, but my half brother is apprenticing under his father in welding. However, both he and his dad get paid relatively low (no special certifications or whatever it takes to make good money as a welder). Also, I don't think he's learning cutting edge and highly desired welding skills, just basics. I think apprenticeship isn't going to be enough to put someone in a great position to learn a craft as a master or to make great money in a trade. Just as a degree won't guarantee success, neither will apprenticeship, though it is another path.
Where I work, for many positions I don't think a resume will be considered without a college degree on it. A bachelor's is the new high school diploma. To encourage apprenticeship, businesses would need incentives to do so. Why would they choose to apprentice people if there is a glut of college graduates desperate for work? It seems convincing business owners would be the key, and what incentives would those businesses have to do this? If businesses don't do it, who would? Colleges?
why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?
Everyone doesn't need to go to college, and I agree apprentice/trade stuff would be great for people who don't want to go to college. Anecdote, but my half brother is apprenticing under his father in welding. However, both he and his dad get paid relatively low (no special certifications or whatever it takes to make good money as a welder). Also, I don't think he's learning cutting edge and highly desired welding ski…
I think the knowledge from college is pretty useful and I enjoy having it. I also think the format sucks and it's really expensive and a mixed bag as to whether you actually have a good / useful experience doing it. Roughly 3/4 of my courses felt like bullshit at a top 50 CS university that is top 10 for engineering. Either they were useless to me (sorry gen ed, you aren't accomplishing your goals) or the profs really didn't give a fuck about teaching and often simply lacked the skills for teaching.
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Your kids first. Studies have shown time and time again that despite all those "Is it worth it?" talk, having a college degree in anything still equals better earning prospects over a lifetime. Everyone I've talked to who proposed "fewer people should go to college" / "more people should go to trade schools" has at least one kid in or graduated from a 4 year degree program. So when people say "fewer people should go…
The colleges are taking a disproportionate amount of credit for kids that probably already had the gumption to do what it takes to make a higher salary. I remember a study from a Malcolm gladwrll piece where they compared the earnings from students who could have gone to UPenn, but opted to go to the state school, Penn St. The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids.
I'd like to know why you think that. When the job application says you must have a bachelor's degree to be considered, gumption doesn't enter into it.
>The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids.
State school graduates earning a similar wage to Ivy League graduates doesn't extrapolate to trade school graduates earning as much as state school graduates.
In any case, the hyper-focus on earnings is misplaced. It says nothing of the intangible value of an education and the four year college experience, nor the exposure to various other pursuits that influence a person's entire life afterwards.
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The colleges are taking a disproportionate amount of credit for kids that probably already had the gumption to do what it takes to make a higher salary. I remember a study from a Malcolm gladwrll piece where they compared the earnings from students who could have gone to UPenn, but opted to go to the state school, Penn St. The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids.
>The colleges are taking a disproportionate amount of credit for kids that probably already had the gumption to do what it takes to make a higher salary. I'd like to know why you think that. When the job application says you must have a bachelor's degree to be considered, gumption doesn't enter into it. >The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids. State school graduates earning a…
Yeah it does. Many of the jobs I've gotten have had various requirements I didn't meet, including that particular one. Pretty much the only truly inflexible sector I've encountered is government. Even there, it's amazing what can be done if the right people want it done.
I think getting a degree was one of the poorer financial decisions of my life and not that great in terms of educational outcomes either. Degrees rarely imply the kind of "intangible value" you're talking of.
TLDR; education > schooling
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>The colleges are taking a disproportionate amount of credit for kids that probably already had the gumption to do what it takes to make a higher salary. I'd like to know why you think that. When the job application says you must have a bachelor's degree to be considered, gumption doesn't enter into it. >The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids. State school graduates earning a…
>I'd like to know why you think that. When the job application says you must have a bachelor's degree to be considered, gumption doesn't enter into it. Yeah it does. Many of the jobs I've gotten have had various requirements I didn't meet, including that particular one. Pretty much the only truly inflexible sector I've encountered is government. Even there, it's amazing what can be done if the right people want it do…
http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
If most of these college graduates could have made it where they are without a degree, wouldn't this count be a little more even? The drastic difference appears somewhat artificial. I agree that a person doesn't "need" a college degree to succeed -- but I think it's fair to say it helps quite a bit.
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>I'd like to know why you think that. When the job application says you must have a bachelor's degree to be considered, gumption doesn't enter into it. Yeah it does. Many of the jobs I've gotten have had various requirements I didn't meet, including that particular one. Pretty much the only truly inflexible sector I've encountered is government. Even there, it's amazing what can be done if the right people want it do…
I think you're an exceptional case. Take a look at the Earnings and unemployment rates by educational attainment: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm If most of these college graduates could have made it where they are without a degree, wouldn't this count be a little more even? The drastic difference appears somewhat artificial. I agree that a person doesn't "need" a college degree to succeed -- but I think it's…
Additionally, there's the cost of delaying and/or slowing one's education while spending those years schooling (which generally moves at a glacial pace).
There are some cases in which the schooling truly is worth the cost and yields exceptional results for those admitted (as opposed to only admitting those who would be exceptional regardless). Those cases are rare and getting rarer.
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Exactly. Also, I don't have a source for this off the top of my head, but from what I've read most of the crisis in loan repayments comes from people who don't graduate. Starting but not graduating may be the most perfidious outcome. In addition, "college" doesn't make much sense as a category of discussion, because "college" is so many different things. I've been writing as much for years: http://jakeseliger.com/201…
My impression is that education, like programming assignments, could be modeled as a step function. You can make a lot of progress, but until you reach a certain point, you won't see most of the value.
why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?
Your kids first. Studies have shown time and time again that despite all those "Is it worth it?" talk, having a college degree in anything still equals better earning prospects over a lifetime. Everyone I've talked to who proposed "fewer people should go to college" / "more people should go to trade schools" has at least one kid in or graduated from a 4 year degree program. So when people say "fewer people should go…