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Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

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Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#251

Post by jessaustin »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #245
jessaustin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, "treating different races differently" is kind of the definition of racism. But think it through further, please. Why do different races fall into different classes? There is more than one reason! For your average racist fuck, the answer is "because race". But TPTB are not all, nor even primarily, average racist fucks. Like "race", "class" is an invention that allows elites to control and extract rent from the r…

At this point, you've defended the existence of racism, but you've abandoned the idea that there's something wrong with it.

I'm probably missing something essential about your argument, but does this thread require a proof that racism is bad? Observing that various parties benefit from it is not an admission that it is of general benefit.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#252

Post by thaumasiotes »

jessaustin wrote: post #251
thaumasiotes wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, you've defended the existence of racism, but you've abandoned the idea that there's something wrong with it.

I'm probably missing something essential about your argument, but does this thread require a proof that racism is bad? Observing that various parties benefit from it is not an admission that it is of general benefit.

Let's go back to the beginning. I argued that what's going on with the police is that they're used by the higher classes as a tool of defense/oppression against the lower ones. I don't think race is of any direct relevance to this phenomenon.

You argued (as I understand things) that the motivation for forming the police was usually "racist", and that it made more sense to view the depredations of police as race issue than a class issue.

I counter that in a society of several racial groups, some poor and some wealthy, I think the police would be expected to spend their energies on the poor groups while leaving the wealthy ones alone. To me, this is evidence that the police are a social-class based instrument rather than a race-based instrument, because if they were an expression of racism they'd be expected to spend their energies on aliens while leaving natives alone (in this analysis, Jews who have been resident for centuries but maintain their own separate culture are "aliens", not "natives").

You say that the different treatment of racial groups according to what social class they belong to is just more racism. You can call it that, but the label stops being useful -- if the police are a "racist" institution, by this definition, you can't predict anything about how they'll treat someone even knowing the race of that person, or knowing whether their race differs from the race of the police they're interacting with, or whether it differs from the race of the group running the police, or any such thing. You have to know their race and the position their race occupies in society. But the social position is doing all the work -- your predictions will be nearly as good if all you know is the personal social standing of the person interacting with the police. Race is a sideshow.

Why is treating different races differently because they have very different social standing primarily an issue of race rather than social standing?

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#253

Post by simoncion »

jMyles wrote: post #249
simoncion wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the crime that replaces drug possession? Theft. (As I've explicitly mentioned at least once. :) ) Other possibilities: False statements to authorities. Possession of a (loaded or unloaded) pistol in the cab of your vehicle, without possession of a pistol permit. Trespass. Assault. Traffic violations. (And then arrest for failure to appear for the same, or jail for failure to be able to pay the fines for the…

What will this person have stolen? To whom will it belong? Someone will have to claim to be the victim. I guess still, we're talking past each other. We need to repeal laws against every one of those offenses except assault and theft (which will require a victim to come forward, again returning to my initial question). My assertion (and one that I think it quite clearly backed up by the evidence in history on the mat…

> What will this person have stolen? To whom will it belong? Someone will have to claim to be the victim.

Property from a collection of property owners who -just like much of the Dothan police department and parts of the DA's office and who knows who else- believe in the ongoing quest to target, harass, and jail a disfavored group of people?

I mean, have you personally known a rabid dyed-in-the-wool racist? I've known many. Several of whom would -if they had the means- jump at the chance to participate in such a scheme.

> We need to repeal laws against every one of those offenses...

We need to repeal laws that make illegal and/or unsafe possession of a firearm, trespassing, parole violations, and traffic violations illegal because... such laws could be used to disproportionately target a particular class of people?!

That's definitely throwing the baby out along with the bathwater.

Look. Your continued assertion that the biggest problem here is nuts-as-shit drug laws, and this would have never had happened if it wasn't for them is (deliberately?) obscuring the real problem.

What's the real problem?

* For roughly twenty years, evil people in positions of power successfully harassed, jailed, and -effectively- stole money and property from targeted members of a disfavored class of people.

* These evil people occupied positions of power in both the police force and the judicial system.

  These evil people used their influence and power to:
* Quash objections to their ongoing conspiracy.

* Terminate an official police investigation into their conspiracy -long after it turned up hard evidence regarding the nature and scope of the conspiracy-

* Promote those who furthered the goals of the conspiracy to higher office (including State Director of Homeland Security!)

* Demote or remove from positions of power those who attempted to dismantle or shut down the conspiracy

I get that you don't like drug laws in this country.

There's a much bigger and much more important story here.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#254

Post by sukulaku »

drdeca wrote: post #239
sukulaku wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but what you're suggesting basically just amounts to rearranging the chairs on the Titanic's deck. Besides, it's been "tried" already, in this form: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers - and by now it's clear how much that helped, right? In reality, "the separation of powers" was just a bullshit PR-distraction, meant to give us a false sense of security, to alleviate the nagging subconscious awar…

So, you are proposing ancap? Or, just the an part I guess.

I'd like to suggest voluntary co-operation instead of exploitation by rulers. It's really not that complicated.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#255

Post by csn »

jessaustin wrote: post #216
csn wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False positives would be scandalous. We would also need an unspoofable way for the AI to distinguish intent of the weapon drawing, because law-enforcement et cetera. The bot can't always already be at the scene when something happens. Anyway I know at least one company working towards this goal as we speak, but I bet they aren't anywhere near that yet: http://gimltd.fi/ (Generic Intelligent Machines)

False positives... The only valid reason to draw a firearm is defense of life. If there are security robots around, one doesn't need to defend oneself or one's companions. (It's true that life may be threatened by tools of violence other than firearms, but robots might be trained to look for those as well.) Besides, by "incapacitate" I don't mean double-tap, rather something reversible like an enveloping foam etc. ..…

By false positives I meant non-firearm objects which the robot recognises to be firearms, and incapaciting brought tasers to mind.

I am probably looking at this problem through smaller-and-safer-country specs, Here police shootings are really rare, but so are other kinds of shootings. I thought of bots with high mobility due to the recent advancements in that sector, which would in my opinion make much more sense here than installing dozens or hundreds of stationary devices in every public space.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#256

Post by sneak »

steveeq1 wrote: post #194
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion: 1) Police are corrupt. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them that "police are corrupt" is true. This will always be the case. Police don't fight crime, nor prevent it. They create it. If you think this isn't so you haven't had enough exposure to them. Maybe my opinion is coloured by my experience: illegal search of person, car, and house. They ransacked my house, stole money and property from me. It took…

"Opinion: Blacks are corrupt. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them that "blacks are corrupt" is true. This will always be the case. Blacks don't fight crime, nor prevent it. They create it. If you think this isn't so you haven't had enough exposure to them. Maybe my opinion is coloured by my experience: they {put bad thing here}. If you see a black, cross the street." Do you honestly think that this is a fair st…

Being a cop is an optional choice people undertake as an adult.

Your analogy falls down when you apply that to race.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#257

Post by rmxt »

pandaman wrote: post #231
hobs wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are dozens of answers to your strawman, here is a simple one: Black people are not responsible for the safety of the citizenry, black people are not defined by the need to protect and serve us, black people are in fact, just people. Cops on the other hand are responsible for the safety of the citizenry, are given special powers due to the additional trust and responsibility we (all the other people) grant…

>The comparison is ridiculous. Indeed. It's very rare for people to call local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs when police breaks into their house. The opposite, though, happens all the time.

Do you have evidence or are you just smearing people and groups for the sake of your argument?

"Gangs commit crime" is sort of a truism, but for the others... that's going to take some evidence.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#258

Post by pandaman »

rmxt wrote: post #257
pandaman wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The comparison is ridiculous. Indeed. It's very rare for people to call local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs when police breaks into their house. The opposite, though, happens all the time.

Do you have evidence or are you just smearing people and groups for the sake of your argument? "Gangs commit crime" is sort of a truism, but for the others... that's going to take some evidence.

Others represent Blacks in general or black criminals in case of #BLM. Do you require evidence to find that black criminals commit home invasions or you are just trolling?

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#259

Post by rmxt »

pandaman wrote: post #258
rmxt wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence or are you just smearing people and groups for the sake of your argument? "Gangs commit crime" is sort of a truism, but for the others... that's going to take some evidence.

Others represent Blacks in general or black criminals in case of #BLM. Do you require evidence to find that black criminals commit home invasions or you are just trolling?

I am asking you to provide evidence that "#BLM", if it can even really be considered a cohesive movement with a defined purpose, supports or performs home invasions. And, evidence that the NAACP openly supports or harbors criminals would be welcome, too.

I'll be waiting, but not holding my breath. At a minimum, your statement lacks nuance. At worst, and more likely, it is factually incorrect and smears groups with legitimate goals.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#260

Post by pandaman »

rmxt wrote: post #259
pandaman wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others represent Blacks in general or black criminals in case of #BLM. Do you require evidence to find that black criminals commit home invasions or you are just trolling?

I am asking you to provide evidence that "#BLM", if it can even really be considered a cohesive movement with a defined purpose, supports or performs home invasions. And, evidence that the NAACP openly supports or harbors criminals would be welcome, too. I'll be waiting, but not holding my breath. At a minimum, your statement lacks nuance. At worst, and more likely, it is factually incorrect and smears groups with le…

I don't think you are arguing in good faith judging by the size of strawman you have to build.
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