Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 31 posts

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#11

Post by logn »

grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

I agree with you on trade school.

However, I would think it's often the poor who would benefit most from college, because it's there they can network with people who would never otherwise be available to them. That could also provide positive peer pressure and some concrete examples of people you can emulate. And college will teach them how to learn and critically think, which might not be skills they have yet.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#12

Post by jseliger »

nsxwolf wrote: post #4

There's got to be a point where prices are high enough and job prospects are poor enough that people will finally start questioning the "get a degree" wisdom.

Exactly. Also, I don't have a source for this off the top of my head, but from what I've read most of the crisis in loan repayments comes from people who don't graduate. Starting but not graduating may be the most perfidious outcome.

In addition, "college" doesn't make much sense as a category of discussion, because "college" is so many different things. I've been writing as much for years: http://jakeseliger.com/2012/12/15/college-william-deresiewic... and doing so mostly futilely, it seems.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#13

Post by BookmarkSaver »

grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

Because an educated, critical-thinking society who's members are good at communication is better for everyone. "Just learn to make money" is a great way to stagnate progress. What is the point in all of the advances in productivity, technology, and culture if we just decide that it isn't worth it to actually provide the benefits to everyone, and instead send our young adults off to just learn a trade because "it's too expensive" to expand our higher education system to everyone and create a better world.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#14

Post by TheCowboy »

logn wrote: post #11
grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

I agree with you on trade school. However, I would think it's often the poor who would benefit most from college, because it's there they can network with people who would never otherwise be available to them. That could also provide positive peer pressure and some concrete examples of people you can emulate. And college will teach them how to learn and critically think, which might not be skills they have yet.

I think the benefit of the college network is probably the most overlooked. But while colleges might teach people how to learn and think critically, they don't teach people who aren't affluent how to network.

Career centers might provide optional workshops on networking, but this isn't enough to prepare students for how to integrate socially. It can be a culture shock when people enter a competitive school and realize that learning isn't the primary objective.

Some people question why it should be that people from non-affluent backgrounds should have to adapt to the culture, and it is a source of resentment and likely a catalyst for some vengeful campus politics. It's a valid concern but people should be making efforts to meet in the middle. Efforts by people with the most power, like Ycombinator going out of their way to recruit women and minorities, are an important part of the solution.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#15

Post by intopieces »

grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

Your kids first. Studies have shown time and time again that despite all those "Is it worth it?" talk, having a college degree in anything still equals better earning prospects over a lifetime. Everyone I've talked to who proposed "fewer people should go to college" / "more people should go to trade schools" has at least one kid in or graduated from a 4 year degree program.

So when people say "fewer people should go to college," I hear, "other people's kids should earn less so my kid doesn't."

It's time we took a hard look at how we pay for college and its costs, most assuredly. But it's not time to discourage people from getting an education, especially with all the predictions about automation.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#16

Post by aantix »

intopieces wrote: post #15
grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

Your kids first. Studies have shown time and time again that despite all those "Is it worth it?" talk, having a college degree in anything still equals better earning prospects over a lifetime. Everyone I've talked to who proposed "fewer people should go to college" / "more people should go to trade schools" has at least one kid in or graduated from a 4 year degree program. So when people say "fewer people should go…

The colleges are taking a disproportionate amount of credit for kids that probably already had the gumption to do what it takes to make a higher salary.

I remember a study from a Malcolm gladwrll piece where they compared the earnings from students who could have gone to UPenn, but opted to go to the state school, Penn St. The result, the state kids earnings were on par with the Ivy League School kids.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#17

Post by InclinedPlane »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #13
grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

Because an educated, critical-thinking society who's members are good at communication is better for everyone. "Just learn to make money" is a great way to stagnate progress. What is the point in all of the advances in productivity, technology, and culture if we just decide that it isn't worth it to actually provide the benefits to everyone, and instead send our young adults off to just learn a trade because "it's to…

> Because an educated, critical-thinking society who's members are good at communication is better for everyone.

Oh, is that what you get from college? I can guarantee you that at best only a tiny percentage of college graduates are properly categorized as "educated critical-thinkers".

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#18

Post by mrdrozdov »

grillvogel wrote: post #3

why does everyone need to go to college? why can't we have a apprentice/trade track for people who don't want to waste time with college (like in most other countries)?

If you look at college as a means to getting further educated, and you consider other options outside of college such as going through a startup accelerator or going through a college alternative like Make School, then you can make a stronger argument for apprenticeship-type programs. These options are still heavily intellectual and learning focused, sometimes even teaching you more in specific topics than you'd be exposed to in college.

I can maybe understand where you are coming from calling college a waste of time, but would interpret it as college not being the most optimal option for every individual, rather falling somewhere on the scale between best and worst option.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#19

Post by mrdrozdov »

jseliger wrote: post #12
nsxwolf wrote: post #4

There's got to be a point where prices are high enough and job prospects are poor enough that people will finally start questioning the "get a degree" wisdom.

Exactly. Also, I don't have a source for this off the top of my head, but from what I've read most of the crisis in loan repayments comes from people who don't graduate. Starting but not graduating may be the most perfidious outcome. In addition, "college" doesn't make much sense as a category of discussion, because "college" is so many different things. I've been writing as much for years: http://jakeseliger.com/201…

My impression is that education, like programming assignments, could be modeled as a step function. You can make a lot of progress, but until you reach a certain point, you won't see most of the value.

Re: College enrollment rates are dropping, especially among low-income students

#20

Post by bphogan »

medymed wrote: post #2

Very limited data provided in the article, and no subgroup analysis by college type or major or other demographic variables. It is more worrying, to me, if all low income future engineering students skip college to become line workers. It is less worrying if the low income students are deciding not to take 40k in debt for an English degree from a for-profit college they are unlikely to graduate from.

One thing we've been watching is that there are less people graduating high school - in other words, there are less people in the school system now. We've been preparing for this for a couple years now by looking to attract more veterans and non traditional students looking at retraining.
Post reply on HN