Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k • Hacker News Board

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#61

Post by seangrant » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 7:12 PM UTC

elthran wrote: post #14

icebraining wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably there would be video? It seems so: "The South Dakota real estate agent said one Nebraska man said he want to buy the Swett ghost town and bring 2,000 Russian women and 600 convicted felons to live in the town. He wanted to build acrylic houses for the new residents to live in and set up cameras to run 24/7 and film the interactions, Syracuse.com reports."

Would something like this even be legal? It almost feels like a human zoo of sorts

Yep, and it exists right now. There are cam sites out there that'll let attractive people live in their dorm-esque condos for free in exchange for being broadcasted 24/7 (and being pressured into being "interesting").

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#62

Post by icebraining » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 8:04 PM UTC

elthran wrote: post #14

icebraining wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably there would be video? It seems so: "The South Dakota real estate agent said one Nebraska man said he want to buy the Swett ghost town and bring 2,000 Russian women and 600 convicted felons to live in the town. He wanted to build acrylic houses for the new residents to live in and set up cameras to run 24/7 and film the interactions, Syracuse.com reports."

Would something like this even be legal? It almost feels like a human zoo of sorts

It's essentially the concept of the Big Brother TV franchise, just on a larger scale.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#63

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 8:29 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #59

ZenoArrow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind." Neither the Soviet Union nor Communist China were/are communist states. They had rulers, communist states cannot have rulers, otherwise they violate the need for absence of social classes. We shouldn't dismiss an idea just because some people misunderstood it. If you can find a society that tried communist principals (and I mean all of the core principals, not half h…

I anticipated that your argument would go in this direction. It's a common line of argument for modern Communists. It's why I touched on what has happened when attempts are made. Again, a state of affairs that cannot be achieved by acceptable means is not an experiment worth repeating. There is no reason to think that a future attempt will have different results from past attempts. Given the costs, why would you thin…

Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve?

As for past attempts, they were communist in name only. If I said the air doesn't exist because I can't find unicorns, that's the level of absurdity that calling a dictatorship a communist society exists in.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#64

Post by martin1b » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

6 acres? A town? Well that's just ridiculous. Just to convey the size, that picture covers well over 6 acres. The white buildings would be the far edge. Not to mention you would need to haul the trashy buildings off to do anything with it. Must be a slow news day..

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#65

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 8:34 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #60

ZenoArrow wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any. Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

North Korea - 1948 to present day Of course anyone can go down the path of "well that wasn't real communism" and that goes for any ideology where humans are involved. You won't achieve the utopian ideal put forth in a book. And that's really part of the failure, not the reason to explain it away. The fact is some people work harder than others, are more ambitious than others and sacrifice more. And the reason people…

At the risk of repeating myself, North Korea isn't communist. You can't have a communist society if you have leaders. There is practically nothing that resembles communism in North Korea.

Let me put it to you like this, any society that doesn't put shared ownership of the means of production at the top of its agenda is not and can never be communist.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#66

Post by Kalium » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 9:08 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #63

Kalium wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I anticipated that your argument would go in this direction. It's a common line of argument for modern Communists. It's why I touched on what has happened when attempts are made. Again, a state of affairs that cannot be achieved by acceptable means is not an experiment worth repeating. There is no reason to think that a future attempt will have different results from past attempts. Given the costs, why would you thin…

Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve? As for past attempts, they were communist in name only. If I said the air doesn't exist because I can't find unicorns, that's the level of absurdity that calling a dictatorship a communist society exists in.

I'm suggesting that in all previous attempts to reach the state you consider heretofore unreached, the states passed through have highly undesirable consequences. The uniformity of this result is striking and the consequences grave.

I'm suggesting that attempting to create a Communist society is a really bad idea. Every previous attempt to do so has led to exceptionally bad consequences. You've provided no reason to think that a new effort will avoid repeating these mistakes. In fact, all you've done is insist that the end goal of Communism has not been achieved.

That a leaderless society has not yet been created in the name of Communism isn't relevant to what has resulted from historical attempts to create such. It matters not one whit to the question of what all previous attempt to achieve such a goal have produced.

Is your goal of a leaderless society with shared means of production achievable? I don't know. I do know that I don't think it's worth killing another thirty million people for the sake of another attempt at finding out. History strongly suggests that that is a significantly more likely outcome of an attempt than the creation of a stable leaderless society with shared means of production.

It's in no way relevant that (Russia|China|North Korea|Cuba) are not or have ever been genuinely Communist in an idealist sense. It doesn't matter if there ever has been a True Scotsman.

In conclusion, every attempt at Communism has failed. This is because every attempt to get to Communism has failed. This is significant because it calls into question the plausibility and achieveability of any kind of transition to Communism. This in turn suggests that Communism cannot ever be evaluated because it is not achieveable by means we consider acceptable. Thus, the initial question of "Has Communism been attempted and failed, where Communism is defined in a textbook manner and the transition to it ignored?" is rendered null and void.

In other words, if you can't find unicorns, it might be time to reconsider the policy of virgin human sacrifice in order to search for unicorns.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#67

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

michaelbuddy wrote: post #60

ZenoArrow wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any. Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

North Korea - 1948 to present day Of course anyone can go down the path of "well that wasn't real communism" and that goes for any ideology where humans are involved. You won't achieve the utopian ideal put forth in a book. And that's really part of the failure, not the reason to explain it away. The fact is some people work harder than others, are more ambitious than others and sacrifice more. And the reason people…

"North Korea - 1948 to present day"

Not real communism.

"Of course anyone can go down the path of "well that wasn't real communism""

Because it isn't. This isn't a "No True Scotsman" thing; North Korea is not in any way, shape, or form Communist. It is a dictatorship led by a despot. Nothing more.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#68

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #63

Kalium wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I anticipated that your argument would go in this direction. It's a common line of argument for modern Communists. It's why I touched on what has happened when attempts are made. Again, a state of affairs that cannot be achieved by acceptable means is not an experiment worth repeating. There is no reason to think that a future attempt will have different results from past attempts. Given the costs, why would you thin…

Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve? As for past attempts, they were communist in name only. If I said the air doesn't exist because I can't find unicorns, that's the level of absurdity that calling a dictatorship a communist society exists in.

"Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve?"

At the end of the day, someone has to be the one to make the call to press the button.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#69

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #66

ZenoArrow wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve? As for past attempts, they were communist in name only. If I said the air doesn't exist because I can't find unicorns, that's the level of absurdity that calling a dictatorship a communist society exists in.

I'm suggesting that in all previous attempts to reach the state you consider heretofore unreached, the states passed through have highly undesirable consequences. The uniformity of this result is striking and the consequences grave. I'm suggesting that attempting to create a Communist society is a really bad idea . Every previous attempt to do so has led to exceptionally bad consequences. You've provided no reason to…

> "This is significant because it calls into question the plausibility and achieveability of any kind of transition to Communism."

It's clear now this is the core of your argument, so let's explore possible transitions further.

First of all, let's examine direct democracy. Direct democracy is closer to communism than any of the attempts (by nation states) that have been given its name. In the age of the Internet, direct democracy is easier than ever to organise. Effectively, you need two things:

1. An inclusive, informative news media.

2. A way to collect votes.

Are two things above hard to achieve? Depends on who you ask, but I'd say they were more than achievable.

How does direct democracy pave the way for communism? Firstly, it begins the process of breaking down the power structures that currently exist, and provides an alternative means of organising society that can fill the power vacuum. Secondly, it gets people used to the balance between the individual and the collective. We can achieve great things when we work together, but that should not come through forceful means, the rights of the individual to choose their own path should still be valued.

Thoughts?

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#70

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #68

ZenoArrow wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve? As for past attempts, they were communist in name only. If I said the air doesn't exist because I can't find unicorns, that's the level of absurdity that calling a dictatorship a communist society exists in.

"Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve?" At the end of the day, someone has to be the one to make the call to press the button.

That can happen democratically, you don't need to give the final say to a single individual or small group.