Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k • Hacker News Board

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#51

Post by dionidium » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 4:43 PM UTC

jws wrote: post #47

dionidium wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one stat I can remember from a volunteer trip several years ago was that an 18 yr old boy had a This doesn't pass any sniff test I can think of.

I could believe "still living there when he was 25". Might be a corrupted context statistic. The life expectancy for males in the county (whole reservation) is 71-72 years. If 50% are dying in their "stupid nearly adult years" they are going to have to have bunch living past 100 to bring the average up.

It is interesting how these sorts of things travel. When I talk to people about North St. Louis I get the impression that they think 1 out of every 2 people who live there are killed in a drive-by shooting, so I understand why someone would believe that half of all men on a reservation die before they're 25. It can't possibly be true, though.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#52

Post by imglorp » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 4:51 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #39

imglorp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alcoholism and poverty on Pine Ridge and Rosebud are no joke. I think there's a genetic component and a cultural component that together almost guarantee it; both drivers are exacerbated by the insular nature of their community. I volunteered with the Habitat chapter near there. They could not build on the res because any houses under construction would be stripped of their copper wire and plumbing before they co…

"I think there's a genetic component and a cultural component that together almost guarantee it; both drivers are exacerbated by the insular nature of their community." You want to explain that, particularly the genetic component?

As someone posted NIH below, it's not a far reach to believe some populations have this gene.

And no, it's not an excuse to give up on them, just a hurdle that needs to be overcome.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#53

Post by yolesaber » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #8

On one hand, this is a little land with a few building in unattractive location/condition. Not so queer. On the other… We are at a point in time when the wealthy are extremely wealthy. The billionaire club is substantial but even below that, personal wealth in the tens or hundreds of millions exists. What do people want to do with that wealth? It's more than can really be spent on comfort, entertainment, sex and such…

>Once upon a time money was power, or could be converted to it. Roman Consuls put personal wealth into political enterprises.

When was wealth never not power? Pretty sure that always and still is the case. Rather than serve in the senate (though some millionaires do of course - the senatorial class in the US is extremely wealthy compared to their constituents), the ultrawealthy just setup and donate to PACs as well as use their money to drive propaganda efforts (e.g. Rupert Murdoch). And then of course you have people like Peter Thiel who want to create an offshore libertarian paradise.

Also you would be surprised on how much can truly be spent on sex and entertainment. Multimillionaires go broke all the time due to drugs, partying, and overwhelming decadence.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#54

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 5:58 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #8

On one hand, this is a little land with a few building in unattractive location/condition. Not so queer. On the other… We are at a point in time when the wealthy are extremely wealthy. The billionaire club is substantial but even below that, personal wealth in the tens or hundreds of millions exists. What do people want to do with that wealth? It's more than can really be spent on comfort, entertainment, sex and such…

> "Where are the people today who would like to create a 1,000 person community? Where are the wealthy who would like to try a bold experiment in communalism, anarchism, feminism or whatnot?"

There are similar experiments happening on a smaller scale. I would argue that you wouldn't want to fund these communities through wealthy benefactors, otherwise it creates a sense of deference and obligation, it's far better to have a more egalitarian community IMO.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#55

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #35

netcan wrote: post #8

On one hand, this is a little land with a few building in unattractive location/condition. Not so queer. On the other… We are at a point in time when the wealthy are extremely wealthy. The billionaire club is substantial but even below that, personal wealth in the tens or hundreds of millions exists. What do people want to do with that wealth? It's more than can really be spent on comfort, entertainment, sex and such…

I would argue that those experiments fall into three categories: * Experiments that have been tried (like anarchism and some kinds of communalism) and don't need repeating * Obviously terrible ideas (anarchism again, communism, some others) * Beyond the ready scope of purely legal changes (feminism) And this is even before you start addressing the problems of getting 1000 people going in an environment with meaningfu…

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any.

Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#56

Post by Kalium » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #55

Kalium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that those experiments fall into three categories: * Experiments that have been tried (like anarchism and some kinds of communalism) and don't need repeating * Obviously terrible ideas (anarchism again, communism, some others) * Beyond the ready scope of purely legal changes (feminism) And this is even before you start addressing the problems of getting 1000 people going in an environment with meaningfu…

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any. Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

Every attempt to enact communism has gone from a putative dictatorship of the proletariat to a plain dictatorship. With a lot of very nasty consequences along the way. Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind.

Now, some kind of Platonic ideal of Communism may work perfectly. It's certainly possible, in the sense that the possibility exists in a realm of pure abstraction. However, history shows that getting there isn't very practical and requires oceans of blood. A perfect system that you cannot get to is useless.

Previous work on this avenue of experimentation suggest remarkably strongly that it should not be attempted again.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#57

Post by efes » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:26 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #49

fiatmoney wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predisposition for alcoholism is hertiable. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

Given that, is there a specific genetic study saying the genetic condition is inherited in Native Americans (and I guess specifically the Lakota)?

> a specific genetic study saying the genetic condition is inherited

These studies are not really about one genetic condition that causes alcoholism, but genes or combinations that provide higher odds of immunity.

There is an a gene more dominant in parts of Asia that increases short term side effects for alcohol, reducing alcoholism.

Europe is suspected to have similar changes through genes that are less compatible with alcoholism dominating over others that might be better for most things, but not for the pickle that was the middle ages.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#58

Post by ZenoArrow » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #56

ZenoArrow wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any. Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

Every attempt to enact communism has gone from a putative dictatorship of the proletariat to a plain dictatorship. With a lot of very nasty consequences along the way. Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind. Now, some kind of Platonic ideal of Communism may work perfectly. It's certainly possible, in the sense that the possibility exists in a realm of pure abstraction. However, history shows that getting there…

> "Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind."

Neither the Soviet Union nor Communist China were/are communist states. They had rulers, communist states cannot have rulers, otherwise they violate the need for absence of social classes.

We shouldn't dismiss an idea just because some people misunderstood it. If you can find a society that tried communist principals (and I mean all of the core principals, not half hearted attempts), I'll definitely be interested to know about them.

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#59

Post by Kalium » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #58

Kalium wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every attempt to enact communism has gone from a putative dictatorship of the proletariat to a plain dictatorship. With a lot of very nasty consequences along the way. Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind. Now, some kind of Platonic ideal of Communism may work perfectly. It's certainly possible, in the sense that the possibility exists in a realm of pure abstraction. However, history shows that getting there…

> "Famines in the Ukraine and China come to mind." Neither the Soviet Union nor Communist China were/are communist states. They had rulers, communist states cannot have rulers, otherwise they violate the need for absence of social classes. We shouldn't dismiss an idea just because some people misunderstood it. If you can find a society that tried communist principals (and I mean all of the core principals, not half h…

I anticipated that your argument would go in this direction. It's a common line of argument for modern Communists. It's why I touched on what has happened when attempts are made.

Again, a state of affairs that cannot be achieved by acceptable means is not an experiment worth repeating. There is no reason to think that a future attempt will have different results from past attempts. Given the costs, why would you think this a reasonable thing to try? Have you seriously considered the possibility that what you want is untestable, because to get to that state requires some intermediate stages we consider unacceptable?

Put another way: if a friend tells you that they have invented a way to solve all energy problems forever, they just need to start with a perpetual motion machine, how seriously would you take them?

Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k

#60

Post by michaelbuddy » Wed, Dec 02, 2015, 6:48 PM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #55

Kalium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that those experiments fall into three categories: * Experiments that have been tried (like anarchism and some kinds of communalism) and don't need repeating * Obviously terrible ideas (anarchism again, communism, some others) * Beyond the ready scope of purely legal changes (feminism) And this is even before you start addressing the problems of getting 1000 people going in an environment with meaningfu…

Can you give me one example of where communism has been attempted and failed? I don't know of any. Note that I'm talking about communism as a way to structure societies, which Wikipedia describes as 'a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.'.

North Korea - 1948 to present day

Of course anyone can go down the path of "well that wasn't real communism" and that goes for any ideology where humans are involved. You won't achieve the utopian ideal put forth in a book. And that's really part of the failure, not the reason to explain it away.

The fact is some people work harder than others, are more ambitious than others and sacrifice more. And the reason people appreciate a capitalistic society is not only can those types of people get rewarded, those same people motivate others to aspire. And we also know that it's easy to deflate the ambitions of people when they feel like the extra work won't get them any further.

Which in my view is why these communist countries develop the fantastic religion around their leaders and at the same time take on the violent means to force their people into working harder. Respect through fear, intimidation and in the case of NK a fantasy of motherly love by the dear leader. Yes I said motherly that wasn't a mistake.

But we're talking about countries here, when if you want to talk about communism from a smaller scale, I'm sure I'd have little to argue with, other than that you don't exactly see a lot of what I would call technical progress coming out of communities, at least none I've ever heard of.