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Repair is a Radical Act

patagonia.com

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregard the other Superfish comments. All 5 Lenovo Laptops we had (replaced since then) had a BIOS Rootkit by Lenovo. NO clean Os, no fancy AV will be of any use. If your not in the mood to rewrite your bios Lenovo will (has proven to)use this backdoor to secretly install malware again and again as they have done again since superfish. Furthermore it'll leave a big backdoor for everyone right to the core since they…

Do you have a source/description for that?

Parent is probably referring to Lenovo's use of the Windows Platform Binary Table, which allows OEMs to put a Windows program in the firmware. Recent versions of Windows will then automatically run this program on each boot. This is apparently intended to allow persistent remote management/anti-theft software.

http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2015/Aug/44

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source/description for that?

Parent is probably referring to Lenovo's use of the Windows Platform Binary Table, which allows OEMs to put a Windows program in the firmware. Recent versions of Windows will then automatically run this program on each boot. This is apparently intended to allow persistent remote management/anti-theft software. http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2015/Aug/44 http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...

[deleted]

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#83
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about moralizing - it can be (and often is) harmful. But in this case the advice is sound. Taking care of your stuff, not discarding it just because it is a bit worn around the edges, and trying to repair it instead of just discarding + buying new; is there something wrong with this approach? not sure it is a "single best thing", but it would make a difference. A large one imho.

It's almost certainly not economically efficient for a software engineer to be darning their own socks. Economic efficiency doesn't align perfectly with resource or energy efficiency in an environmental sense but in this example it is still likely true. There are economic and environmental costs to everyone having the tools, skills and supplies to repair a reasonable range of products. At the least it likely makes mo…

  It's almost certainly not economically efficient for a software engineer
  to be darning their own socks.
...or cooking their own meals. Or raising their own children. Or commenting on HN.

I don't know about you, but I don't do a very good job of software engineering 100% of my waking time, even if doing so would certainly be more economically efficient than the alternative. 8 hours a day? Sure. 10 hours? Maybe. 12? Probably not, especially for extended periods.

We all make decisions about how we spend our time, both on and off the clock. Personally, I'm perfectly capable of sewing a loose button while watching TV and still consider it downtime. Even if I could easily afford to buy a new shirt instead.

I agree with you that you shouldn't at all costs repair everything or do everything yourself. But I'll happily assign some of my spare time to maintenance tasks, and I think doing so does make economic sense as well as environmental.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#84

I appreciate companies making repairable products, providing repair manuals and avoiding proprietary screws etc. but I think it's overly simplistic to say repair is the default right choice. It makes sense to strive for efficiency. In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not. There are always tradeoffs and sometimes durability and repairability are over-engineering for a particular use c…

It is your right to believe what you asserted. My experience points me in a different direction; my comments are not directed as criticism, just offering a different perspective. See my comment below that I'm well aware there are personalities for whom the perspective I offer are not suited for.

> Prices act as a mechanism to incorporate information on efficiency of resource use and cheap disposable items are cheap in part because they take fewer resources to manufacture and transport.

I consider the concept of pricing-conveying-information outdated in a world that moves much faster and is far more sophisticated and complicated than earlier ages. The modern drawback with relying upon pricing to convey information is there is a huge latency between pricing and customer-relevant information coming out about the product or service. This latency only gets larger as software-aided and -enhanced customers start grappling with an ever-larger constellation of externalities of the products and services they incorporate into their decisions, as do sellers.

I don't want to find out the BuyItForLife tool I purchased for a premium price is not the same quality as a past generation of buyers bought and recommended, but only after half a decade of market pressure forces the manufacturer to lower prices as the news of their shoddier modern instances start to gradually filter through the public. I want to know before I buy it, and it is the Internet, not pricing, that is gradually forcing out that information asymmetry that exists between sellers and consumers in category after category. It is not pricing chiefly disambiguating the dozens of choices facing Amazon buyers, it is the recommendation data.

Furthermore, repairability and durability in tandem are often consonant with modifiability. The Internet enables hundreds of thousands to millions of people to access and share with each other skills to modify all sorts of products, far faster than before. The barriers to entry to learn product hacking skills like soldering, welding, plastics molding, woodworking, etc., are far lower than someone born just 20 years ago can imagine, and we aren't nearly finished yet with that trend. Product modifiability is essential to not just keeping products out of the landfill, but also future-proofing and adaptability to a user's specific requirements. I hold that such adaptability is essential to confront the ever-complex future we all face.

There is most assuredly a spectrum of trade-offs. In a resource-constrained setting (perhaps below about a middle-class First World standard of living, maybe lower?), I most heartily agree with you that over-engineering every product choice is premature optimization. But the "particular use case" mindset, even when the use case is say 20 years, is a subtle trap. That mindset is a much-scaled-up timescale version of the "why the poor stay poor" time-capital preference decisions. The farther out you can push that timescale, the more you (and your progeny) have an opportunity to escape that trap.

Note I'm not saying buy over-engineered for every single product, even if you can afford that purchase behavior. For specific categories of products however, like objects that are intimately tied to physical human factors, it's a good bet to buy over-engineered where you can afford it and/or it has a positive impact on your productivity. For example, there is unlikely to be a quantum leap in wood planer technology akin to the transition from hand-held to power planers in the near'ish (20-100 years) future; a hand-held power planer you buy today can conceivably be handed down to a few future generations and still deliver the same functionality. Products that can enjoy a quantum leap in functionality from embedded software could be a big exception in the coming decades, though; change from a hand-held to a bench planer, and software could be a significant consideration in the future, for example.

I don't advocate this purchase behavior for everyone. It works best if you have the personality who considers in advance the logistical tail of properly maintaining a purchased product, including proper stowage (often means climate-controlled or at least humidity-controlled), preventative maintenance, ancillary repair tools, and spare parts stocking (a lamentable side-effect of a minority purchase behavior is spare parts are not as readily obtainable in more remote locations, so stocking the most commonly wear and tear parts mitigates downtime). My rough rule of thumb is 1.5-2.0X purchase price for that logistical tail for the time that I own it before passing it onwards. If you don't plan on having children or a similarly close relationship with relatives from a younger generation (nephews/nieces for example), or mentees, then this purchase behavior applies less to you. And so on. Different strokes for different folks, there are no hard and fast rules here, just considerations to weigh.

Finally, we all face the minimal quantums of time and energy in our lives. These products represent embedded time and energy not just to create them, but the buyer's time and energy, to evaluate, understand operation, adopt to idiosyncrasies, etc. Product switching costs these days are increasingly incorporating greater complexities. For an ever-increasing swath of products as software permeates across the physical landscape, it is no longer just a consideration of keeping embedded time and energy from a landfill.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#85

While some companies, like Ricoh, DeWalt, Caterpillar and Lenovo have made repair and remanufacturing a staple of their business model, This is why I continue to buy Lenovo, even though it can be argued that overall quality and durability of a Thinkpad isn't what it used to be when IBM still owned the brand. When I buy a Thinkpad (like the T440s I bought last year), I am reasonably assured that if something breaks, I…

This is also why I buy higher-end Dell laptops. In fact I'd suggest to anyone inclined to see what life they can get out of their hardware, before buying a laptop, see if you can find the service manual online. My current laptop is at least 5 years old now and going strong. Battery life sucks, of course, but that's just a constant for the age of the laptop. I've had to replace hard drives (easy), get a total air-flow-blocking dust bunny out of the fan (service manual was quite helpful, that involved near total disassembly unfortunately), and replace the keyboard. While I could theoretically blunder my way through the latter two, it's nice to have a manual telling you exactly what to do, so you do only and exactly what you need to do. (Every laptop I've had has been different in terms of what you access from the top and the bottom.)

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#86
post #56

This brings be to the area of new cell phones. Not good for the environment global warming. Consumer electronics are designed to be replaced which is bad for the environment. See planned Obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence I do not buy that you cannot make a good looking cell phone that is sturdy and allows for component replacement. The Apple Macbook unibody 2009-2012 has metal screws, yo…

> I do not buy that you cannot make a good looking cell phone that is sturdy and allows for component replacement. You absolutely can. And your competitor can build one that's a little bit smaller, a little bit lighter, a little bit more beautiful, and you'll be competing on sustainability while your competitor is competing on "new and cooler". Unfortunately, I'd bet on your competitor in that scenario.

> And your competitor can build one that's a little bit smaller, a little bit lighter, a little bit more beautiful

People keep saying this because it's the excuse given by companies who do it (and who may have ulterior motives). But is there any technical reason why it should be true? How much "thickness" does a modular battery connector really add?

More to the point, it assumes that all customers want exactly the same thing, which is pure bunkum. If all your competitors are solely selling tiny shiny delicate objects that lose 100% of their value upon battery ageing or collision with the ground then there will be some large minority of the market that will stand in line to get something which is 12% heavier because it's more modular and durable than that, and you would be able to claim that entire market segment by providing it.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#87
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cost at US wages was a significant fraction of what it would cost to buy a brand new replacement This is why I get the highest-quality stuff I can and repair it. Instead of replacing mediocre things every year or two, I have a few superb things that I spend $100-$200 a year maintaining (total, not each).

I'd be surprised if that ends up cheaper once you take into account the inconvenience of arranging repairs.

If you factor in the cost for the environment, absolutely!

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#88
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about the "Repair is a Radical Act" post, and my position, like I said, is that it is brand marketing. Therefore, I am not going to make any active effort: I expect the message to be regurgitated directly into my gullet.

Sure, I don't think they have ever hid the fact that they play the game, what they are trying to do is play it in a responsible manner. Yvon Chouinard's book is worth a read, it's a fine line to tread and, in my opinion, lazy to take the cynical way out. (Not that I think you are!)

Yeah. Definitely don't let me ruin it for you. The snotty examples were mine, not his. I'm the sanctimonious asshole.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#89

I want to add an anecdote to inject some reality into this discussion. I bought a wetsuit from Patagonia in 2009 (I think). They were super new to the wetsuit industry and I paid 300+$ during their "half price" sale. Full price was ~600$ and 300 was the price for the top of the line "money is no object" wetsuit. For someone who surfs a lot (me) wetsuits traditionally last about three years/seasons. Last year my patag…

The cool thing about running a service center for your products is that you can learn all of their failure modes.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source/description for that?

Parent is probably referring to Lenovo's use of the Windows Platform Binary Table, which allows OEMs to put a Windows program in the firmware. Recent versions of Windows will then automatically run this program on each boot. This is apparently intended to allow persistent remote management/anti-theft software. http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2015/Aug/44 http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...

Yes ... Microsoft even changed the guidelines since Lenovo gave a good example how it shouldn't be done.

Others can just piggy-back on the LSE and run malware undetected.

some links i pulled up quick:

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/lenovo-and-superfis...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/14/lenovo-ser...

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2984889/windows-pcs/len...

Trust is earned not given, and they did a hell of a job to make sure it's lost. I don't have the time (why should i waste time with this in the first place) nor the patience to check every Lenovo product down to the bios.

My first expierience was with a customers laptop about 3 month before Superfish hit the media. Remote location no inet access ... so removing all the malware by hand took about 6 hours and a mental breakdown since some pieces just came back again and again.

I suspected a hidden system recovery partition that would reload some malware functions... don't ask how much time was wasted all in all.

Edit: If you used a Lenovo PC and did any sensitive stuff like online banking, thanks to their MiM attack, they phished your logins and other data or you are willing to believe they put in all this work - compromitting https/hiding in Bios (maybe HDD Firmware, too) to just replace an ad here and there and suuuurely delete anything of ... real value.... that gets cought by accident/technical impossibility to filter.

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