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Repair is a Radical Act

patagonia.com

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Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#41

Post by mipapage »

mattnewport wrote: post #24

I appreciate companies making repairable products, providing repair manuals and avoiding proprietary screws etc. but I think it's overly simplistic to say repair is the default right choice. It makes sense to strive for efficiency. In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not. There are always tradeoffs and sometimes durability and repairability are over-engineering for a particular use c…

Sadly, I doubt that manufacturers are consciously thinking about durability and (more-so) repairability when planning.

"In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not." I doubt that choice - one way or another -is being made very often.

If a tradeoff has been made, then it would be great to have that knowledge as a consumer and thus be able to make an informed decision.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#42

Post by pcl »

mattnewport wrote: post #33
kijin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that current market prices do not accurately reflect negative externalities such as pollution, exploitation of cheap labor, depletion of natural resources, and exacerbation of socioeconomic inequalities. We just dump our trash somewhere and hope that someone else will deal with it someday. If there's a reliable mechanism to make market prices better reflect such externalities, I'm all for it. But until…

Even to the extent that may be true, it does not follow that "As individual consumers, the single best thing we can do for the planet is to keep our stuff in use longer." as the article claims. There are almost certainly better things most individuals could do. I think moralizing is actually pretty harmful in the context of environmental issues. It leads to things like wasted resources on inefficient recycling progra…

I would not be surprised if that is truly the most effective behavior change for a group of people to execute on.

I'm sure that individuals among us may be in a position to help our planet in a more effective manner, but the old saying "reduce, reuse, recycle" is in that order for a reason.

I'm sure this campaign brings a ton of branding benefit to Patagonia, but I certainly can't dismiss it as a cynical ploy to take a hypocritical moral stand. It takes a fair bit of courage to take out a huge ad on Black Friday and say "our company's products damage the earth. Here are the numbers. Please don't buy them unless you need to." The world would be a better place if more companies were willing to be that forthright.

In any event, they are literally publishing numbers about the impact of their manufacturing process. So it should be straightforward to determine how optimal her strategy is.

(Incidentally, I'd love to see those sorts of numbers across more industries. For example: should I keep driving my 9-year-old gas car, or should I incur the environmental impact of battery manufacture etc. for a new hybrid or all-electric? If the former, then at what point should I ditch my current car, given how many miles I drive annually?)

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#43

Post by quanticle » 

    While some companies, like Ricoh, DeWalt, Caterpillar and Lenovo have made 
    repair and remanufacturing a staple of their business model,
This is why I continue to buy Lenovo, even though it can be argued that overall quality and durability of a Thinkpad isn't what it used to be when IBM still owned the brand. When I buy a Thinkpad (like the T440s I bought last year), I am reasonably assured that if something breaks, I can take it apart by myself and replace or repair the individual broken component, rather than having to throw out the whole laptop and buy a new one. Lenovo publishes the bill-of-materials for its laptops online, as well as the repair manual, which makes things a lot easier when trying to match parts. Just this weekend, I "repaired" my laptop's inability to receive 5Ghz wifi signals by replacing the stock 802.11 b/g/n wireless card with a 802.11 ac part. If this had been a Mac or an ultrabook, I would have just had to deal with the limitations of the hardware as it was.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#44

Post by mipapage »

mattnewport wrote: post #33
kijin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that current market prices do not accurately reflect negative externalities such as pollution, exploitation of cheap labor, depletion of natural resources, and exacerbation of socioeconomic inequalities. We just dump our trash somewhere and hope that someone else will deal with it someday. If there's a reliable mechanism to make market prices better reflect such externalities, I'm all for it. But until…

Even to the extent that may be true, it does not follow that "As individual consumers, the single best thing we can do for the planet is to keep our stuff in use longer." as the article claims. There are almost certainly better things most individuals could do. I think moralizing is actually pretty harmful in the context of environmental issues. It leads to things like wasted resources on inefficient recycling progra…

You have changed 'individual consumers' to individual.

As a consumer, make the choice to consume goods that cause less harm and then make them last longer. As an individual, there are likely better things you can do, sure.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#45

Post by mipapage »

chrissnell wrote: post #14

It's an interesting idea but as someone who owns dozens of their products, I'd love to see them take this a step further: I want to be able to order (for only the cost of shipping) repair parts and fabric for my repairs. For example, my Patagonia roll-aboard luggage is a decade old now and the veteran of hundreds of flights and trips around the world. The burly ripstop nylon is wearing through in spots and you can re…

Have you asked them? They have some pretty crazy stores about reaching back to repair old gear.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#46

Post by mipapage »

Camillo wrote: post #29
famousactress wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally happening at Patagonia and has been for more than twenty years. It's worth reading Yvonne's book [1]. In it, he talks about Patagonia clothes becoming fashionable in the 80's which led to a spike in demand, then a trough when fashion shifted and layoffs which deeply hurt him and the company. The reaction was to focus severely on attracting customers that were using the products for utility and to dis…

> The reaction was to focus severely on attracting customers that were using the products for utility and to discourage others from purchasing. Wonder why you can't buy everything Patagonia makes in black, like you can for anything North Face? This is why. What? A black waterproof coat is dorky, it makes you look like a walking garbage bag. I should know, I have one (it was the only color left in my size). They are p…

Maybe read the book rather than let this person 'ruin it for you'.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#47

Post by mattnewport »

annnnd wrote: post #40
mattnewport wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even to the extent that may be true, it does not follow that "As individual consumers, the single best thing we can do for the planet is to keep our stuff in use longer." as the article claims. There are almost certainly better things most individuals could do. I think moralizing is actually pretty harmful in the context of environmental issues. It leads to things like wasted resources on inefficient recycling progra…

I agree with you about moralizing - it can be (and often is) harmful. But in this case the advice is sound. Taking care of your stuff, not discarding it just because it is a bit worn around the edges, and trying to repair it instead of just discarding + buying new; is there something wrong with this approach? not sure it is a "single best thing", but it would make a difference. A large one imho.

It's almost certainly not economically efficient for a software engineer to be darning their own socks. Economic efficiency doesn't align perfectly with resource or energy efficiency in an environmental sense but in this example it is still likely true.

There are economic and environmental costs to everyone having the tools, skills and supplies to repair a reasonable range of products. At the least it likely makes more sense to have a specialist perform any but the most basic repairs rather than doing it yourself.

In some cases repairs make sense from an efficiency perspective, in some they don't. All I'm really saying is that it's better to evaluate the more efficient choice dispassionately rather than painting repair as somehow morally superior to buying new.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#48

Post by vlehto »

mipapage wrote: post #41
mattnewport wrote: post #24

I appreciate companies making repairable products, providing repair manuals and avoiding proprietary screws etc. but I think it's overly simplistic to say repair is the default right choice. It makes sense to strive for efficiency. In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not. There are always tradeoffs and sometimes durability and repairability are over-engineering for a particular use c…

Sadly, I doubt that manufacturers are consciously thinking about durability and (more-so) repairability when planning. "In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not." I doubt that choice - one way or another -is being made very often. If a tradeoff has been made, then it would be great to have that knowledge as a consumer and thus be able to make an informed decision.

Current trend in business to business trades is to rent the stuff you previously sold. Like pump manufacturer who previously sold pumps might now sell "liquid flow" and charge by cubic meter. Everybody wins.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#49

Post by mattnewport »

mipapage wrote: post #41
mattnewport wrote: post #24

I appreciate companies making repairable products, providing repair manuals and avoiding proprietary screws etc. but I think it's overly simplistic to say repair is the default right choice. It makes sense to strive for efficiency. In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not. There are always tradeoffs and sometimes durability and repairability are over-engineering for a particular use c…

Sadly, I doubt that manufacturers are consciously thinking about durability and (more-so) repairability when planning. "In some cases repair is the most efficient choice but in others it is not." I doubt that choice - one way or another -is being made very often. If a tradeoff has been made, then it would be great to have that knowledge as a consumer and thus be able to make an informed decision.

I've got absolutely no objection to the information necessary to make such decisions being available to consumers but relying on individual consumers to explicitly evaluate the environmental impact of every purchase is not a scalable solution to environmental problems.

Using the price mechanism, if necessary using well designed taxes or subsidies to price in currently unpriced externalities, is both scalable and done right avoids unhelpful moralizing.

Re: Repair is a Radical Act

#50

Post by pessimizer »

quanticle wrote: post #43

While some companies, like Ricoh, DeWalt, Caterpillar and Lenovo have made repair and remanufacturing a staple of their business model, This is why I continue to buy Lenovo, even though it can be argued that overall quality and durability of a Thinkpad isn't what it used to be when IBM still owned the brand. When I buy a Thinkpad (like the T440s I bought last year), I am reasonably assured that if something breaks, I…

On a T430 at this moment, and availability of replacement parts was the only reason I bought it over a few other models.
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