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This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

okwu.edu

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Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

I don't think the disdain for these safe spaces is necessarily from sexism and hatred (though HN has issues with those). The basic "problem" from developer culture is that it is heavily rooted in systems logic, and frankly safe spaces as proposed and as advertised and as popularly understood are illogical. Very simply, using your definition, the safe space both proclaims to allow discussion and then by its very defin…

You've mistaken discussion in general—which encompasses a fairly broad range of exchanges—with a particularly narrow subset that is characterized by clearly defined and opposing positions, along with acceptance of adversarial engagement from "both sides" of the issue.

There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that are socially inhibiting, making it a serious impediment to free discussion and open development of ideas.

If a person cannot (or will not) recognize when taking a narrow and combative approach just makes them an asshole, then the "logical" response is to keep them far enough away to prevent their noxious manner from derailing otherwise productive exchanges.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact it's being very openly argued all over the place in US culture today. The recent famous video of the Yale professor that was trying to talk rationally to the irrational students around him - it was all about the students claiming they had a right to not be offended, and the notion that their feelings trumped freedom of speech.

Separately, please note that "freedom of speech" is a term which refers specifically to the government using force to prevent or compel speech from private citizens. In the context of university student conduct, I'm not aware of any law or court case which impinges on this freedom. Being expelled from a university for your conduct does not qualify as an infringement of your freedom of speech.

> Separately, please note that "freedom of speech" is a term which refers specifically to the government using force to prevent or compel speech from private citizens.

There's a whole world outside US: http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#563
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of a safe space is very much similar to the way a christian university might work. There are clubs and groups on campus that declare that the room in which they operate, while they are in session, as a place where they are free to be themselves. Like if for example, there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "maybe you guys should get out more" they might ask that person to leave…

> if for example, there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "maybe you guys should get out more" they might ask that person to leave The story in the article is more like if there were a meeting of comic book lovers and someone comes in and says "your love of comic books is offensive and victimizes me because I don't love comic books, you need to stop right away" and then pulls the fire…

You are being hyperbolic to a silly degree. The story in the article appears to be about a private conversation between two individuals. Nobody is pulling any fire alarms, metaphorically or otherwise.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

I don't think the disdain for these safe spaces is necessarily from sexism and hatred (though HN has issues with those). The basic "problem" from developer culture is that it is heavily rooted in systems logic, and frankly safe spaces as proposed and as advertised and as popularly understood are illogical. Very simply, using your definition, the safe space both proclaims to allow discussion and then by its very defin…

I'm surprised that you've been downvoted for this. You're absolutely correct - without a proper and internally logical definition (beyond the literal dictionary meaning of the words themselves), a term like "safe space" is useless for discussion.

    newspace = makeSafe(space);
Is it wrong to ask what the value of newspace is?

How would we test that this function is performing correctly?

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gee, think you have enough scare quotes around? There absolutely are victims on college campuses--victims of sexual assault, of racist acts of violence, of acts of intimidation based on their sexual orientation. I knew people who suffered these things. It's crap to act as if this is all made up. The purpose of safe spaces isn't to impose thought control, it's to allow people who have suffered a chance to recover. You…

The recent outcry against "safe spaces" has been against those established in public spaces and enforced with calls for violence. That's far from a case of free association.

For this I'd like citations.

I'd point out, though, that even if a handful of people have been using the idea of "safe spaces" wrongly, that doesn't delegitimize the concept itself. If a few students are doing wrong in the name of "safe spaces," the answer is to argue against those particular students, not against other, unrelated safe spaces.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space", which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing. If you hate Christianity, why would you go to this school? If you aren't willing to follow behavioral rules, why would you go to this school? If you think ph…

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die.

FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do just want to shut other up. Professor said something they didn't like? "Waaah...this classroom isn't a safe space". Group-I'm-not-a-part-of says something they don't like? "Waaah...they're making my school a not-safe place".

I have no problem with the idea of a physically-located place with heightened expectations of civility.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#567
post #199

I have a friend who attended OKWU a few years ago. She shared this piece on Facebook in approval. From what I know from her education there, this place is essentially a "safe-space" for Christians. If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out. If you don't follow its rules, you are kicked out. If you drink, smoke, have premarital sex, are lgbtq, don't follow their strict ethics…

There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space", which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing. If you hate Christianity, why would you go to this school? If you aren't willing to follow behavioral rules, why would you go to this school? If you think ph…

TL;DR: If a student can't be openly and actively gay at your university, then you're running an indoctrination camp, not a "place to learn".

> There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space"

No, there defintionally is not... perhaps there seems to be a confusion over definitions.

The fact that people want to expand the rules governing a particular safe space into a large sphere doesn't change the definition of a safe space.

You can take offense with someone wanting to make a classroom into a safe space, but I really don't get why any non-authoritarian person would insist on not allowing safe spaces at all.

Also, I'd be surprised if OKWU faculty/students/alumni don't try doing the exact same thing (expanding the boundaries of their safe space) by voting for fundamentalist christian politicians who enforce christian morality on women who use birth control, homosexuals, people who consume alcohol, etc.

> ...which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing.

What, like kicking someone out of a university when they realize half way through a difficult-to-transfer course of study that they're gay? Or that they enjoy square dancing?

The harm that fundie universities like OKWU have done to students who disagree ever so slightly with their idiotic version of religion is demonstrable and significant. Your argument that students somehow "should have known better" is, IMO, fundamentally misinformed.

> And this is evidence of what, exactly?

That OKWU is a safe space and that safe spaces have always existed, but they usually function to shelter people who are aligned with popular opinion / cultural norms. You know, like social norms (e.g., not employing publicly out gay people, looking the other way when transvestites are assaulted, etc.) protecting homophobes from having to knowingly interact with the icky gay people.

OKWU is a safe space for people who don't want to have to interact with anyone who does not subscribe to their particular brand of nutty American puritan christianity. It's a place where people can be openly homophobic and openly judge other people's sexual morality without being socially ostracized like they would be in the real world.

Just in case my opinion isn't clear by now: Everett Piper is a massive hypocrite who runs a religious commune with strict codes of conduct while also appealing to liberal values. He doesn't actually give a shit about free speech or dissenting opinions. It's impossible to take someone seriously when they claim universities aren't safe spaces while also expelling people for disagreeing with a very particular and very whacky form of christianity.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#568
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what's so annoying. Everyone's having this big screaming conversation about something and using the words for something else, like they're working with some kind of bilingual dictionary. The entries for "safe space" and "trigger warning" got mixed up with a Sudoku puzzle, and everyone's pretending it makes perfect sense instead of looking for a better dictionary.

Trigger warnings are important, in the context of a safe place. I'm coming from the direction of a) being genderqueer and b) having survived sexual assault. Safe places have been remarkable in giving me a place to discuss my feelings about gender without ridicule or hate. Trigger warnings have been pivotal in me recovering from being molested as a pre-teen. I'm actively scared of coming out in the developer community…

I always appreciate warnings that let me be ready to read or hear about the few things that still bug me (nothing as rough as your b). Way more effective than the "tough love" so many advocate.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#569

It doesn't take long watching social media trending tags - particularly on Twitter to notice that there is definitely a trend of this kind of sentiment among the demographic of the social media outlets. While the article may (or may not be, I really have no idea) a fabrication, my observation is that the sentiment towards playing the victim and labeling others as haters and bigots is extensive. Being brought up Chris…

> What happened to just treating others as you wish to be treated in return?

Ironically (in the context of the paragraph preceding that quote), that is a characteristically Christian notion.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#570
post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not religious, but this is simply prejudice, and it doesn't belong here. What a sheltered life you claim to have led, not to have met anyone "smart" who is also religious.

> What a sheltered life you claim to have led, not to have met anyone "smart" who is also religious. Perhaps, although maybe in my social bubble in London, Christians just aren't all that common, smart or otherwise. My last interaction with a Christian was my ex-neighbours. Lovely friendly family, or so we thought until we saw & heard them carrying out exorcisms on terrified, screaming children in their kitchen. I ca…

One neighboring family (with whom you've had conflicts serious enough to require LEO intervention) is standing in for Christians you've never met on the other side of the world? How is that not prejudice?
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