This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#171

Post by jonlucc » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #95

wmichelin wrote: post #5

I think that this article is fantastic. It highlights what is wrong with all the political correctness going on. To an extent, it is necessary. People shouldn't be made to feel bad about race, gender, or sexuality, but once you start to coddle them, you aren't helping them grow as individuals. People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what.

> People in the real world will treat you like crap, no matter what. Why should we accept this?

We shouldn't and don't. In fact, if someone is making you feel unsafe at work (especially if it's because of your gender, race, etc), HR has a responsibility to address it.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#172

Post by VLM » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:37 PM UTC

whatok wrote: post #64

maaku wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back yo…

Why has all the hyper-sensitivity only come to the forefront over the past few years then?

Its a virulent meme parasite that has as a necessary characteristic of its existence, internet based social media. Its a societal sickness or illness.

Much like you can't have the historical black plague without the specific species of flea that live on a specific species of urban rat, you can't have SJWs without social media.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#173

Post by EthanHeilman » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:37 PM UTC

HelloNurse wrote: post #161

EthanHeilman wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Exactly, I don't get why people are trying to make universities, workplaces, clubs, or anywhere else "safe places". I'm not directly disagreeing with you here or putting words in your mouth. I realize you are not saying safe spaces should not exist. Instead I want to make the argument that having safe spaces is reasonable. People make safe spaces _within_ universities and other institutions for the same reason some…

There is a big difference between having a problem with fireworks and having a problem with religion, like in the OP. Asking for a "safe space" where you don't have to deal with your conscience is horribly absurd.

Agreed, that is why I said I wasn't disagreeing with the OP.

My concern is that silly things which people do, like say complaining about being made to feel guilty, will be used to paint safe spaces as 'silly' or 'unnecessary' when in fact safe spaces provide a very valuable function.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#174

Post by xiaoma » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:38 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #108

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually white heterosexual middle class males can totally appreciate these things. Imagine what it is like to be white/asian in a country where a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by black men and where black on white crimes are 5.6 times more common than white on black crimes [1]. Imagine what it is like to be Christian when a disproportionate number of terror attacks are committed by Islamic types. M…

I'm asian. I don't feel threatened by black crime when it's also shown that police target black people for arrest more than whites and that the system is often stacked against black people. I'm more uncomfortable that white males are shooting up schools in my country several times a year because there's nothing being done pointing this demographic out. Your experience doesn't reflect the experience of all others.

Living in Asia, I've seen a lot more news about "white males shooting up schools" than I have about other violent crime in the US, except perhaps police brutality. It's on major news pages / channels. Admittedly, most of what I find is through social media (US and Chinese).

Where do you get most your news?

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#175

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:38 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #15

lagadu wrote: post #3

I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to feel uncomfortable. Somehow they believe that their feelings are the responsibility of everyone else.

That's a strawman. Even the folks screaming at their residence hall master at Yale didn't assert an abstract "right not to be offended." Their beef was about an institution they pay money to not doing enough to police the conduct of other members of that institution. What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out…

[deleted]

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#176

Post by zwily » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:38 PM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #156

SeanDav wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little research will produce a vast number of examples of political correctness with real consequences and not just "straw-manning". Here is a recent example: A Canadian university cancels a yoga class because yoga comes "from a culture that “experienced oppression, cultural genocide and diasporas due to colonialism and western supremacy,” In a world that can do that, I don't find it surprising that a student could…

Just to add some more info; it was the student union that was running the yoga class and cancelled it, the university administration had no part in its cancellation. This was wholly done by students.

That doesn't seem to change how ridiculous it sounds, does it?

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#177

Post by noonespecial » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:39 PM UTC

whatok wrote: post #64

maaku wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back yo…

Why has all the hyper-sensitivity only come to the forefront over the past few years then?

"Nowadays, it is true, we are made so sensitive by the raving crowd of flatterers that we cry out that we are stung as soon as we meet with disapproval. When we cannot ward off the truth with any other pretext, we flee from it by ascribing it to a fierce temper, impatience, and immodesty." - Martin Luther, 1520!

Perhaps not so new, Twitter was just slower in the 1500's.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#178

Post by venomsnake » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:39 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #124

orik wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because reforming all possible aggressors ever is an uphill battle you'll never solve. Imagine you have an API that receives a POST with some JSON. Every time your API receives a malformed POST, your application crashes or hangs. Do you a) try to do your best to make sure no one ever POSTS to your uri with malformed data, or do you b) rewrite your API to be more robust and send back an error code when malformed input…

> Because reforming all possible aggressors ever is an uphill battle you'll never solve. I don't believe this is true. Human behavior can change. Relative to its levels 500 years ago, we've all-but eliminated physical violence in first-world countries. I don't think it's much of a stretch to believe we can all-but eliminate emotional violence as well. We're dealing with human beings, so I didn't read your JSON analog…

> We're dealing with human beings, so I didn't read your JSON analogy, sorry.

Unreliable, unpredictable, illogical, making no sense and you never has exact idea which rules they obey at the moment and what output they will generate.

So human beings indeed sound like Javascript or PHP ... [1]

[1] 10 years experience with php and JS.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#179

Post by venomsnake » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:41 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #167

venomsnake wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't we try to reform your aggressors in the first place? Because someone somewhere defines something about another group of people as aggression and we can go "reforming" them with impunity. Take a wild guess what the ranges of something could be ...

OP said, > I grew up being called Gwailo, Gaijin, Auslander, and when I finally returned to the anglosphere in my early teens, I was still an outsider as I spoke with a weird accent and was by that point a through-and-through third culture kid. I got the crap bullied out of me I don't see any value in accepting this behavior. What harm is there in trying to eliminate it?

Because someone somewhere will use the framework and legal precedents you create to eliminate other behavior. Which may happen to be behavior you approve of.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#180

Post by philh » Tue, Dec 01, 2015, 2:42 PM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #104

philh wrote: post #56

This seems to be thrusting in two directions. One about trigger warnings and safe spaces and so on, and one about sermons and guilt. One common narrative re safe spaces seems to be: "if something makes you uncomfortable, you should suck it up instead of trying to force everyone else to accommodate you". I think this is somewhat missing the point, but I can relate to it. I feel like this is the dominant narrative in t…

I pretty strongly disagree with that "because you're a bad person" too, if it were that. But what I read in the article is more "because you're not perfect, as neither one of us is, so show a little introspection about you before complaining about others". And... it's about 1 Corinthians 13. See https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1... Seriously, go read it, it resonates in quite a peculiar way…

> An altar call is supposed to make you feel bad. It is supposed to make you feel guilty.

Maybe that's not quite "you're a bad person". But I feel like your reading is missing the "you should feel bad" aspect.

That chapter resonates with me too, because it's pretty much exactly the sentiment I'm disagreeing with. Supposedly it doesn't matter what you do, it matters what you feel.

No, that's exactly wrong. If you do the right thing, that's good. If you do the wrong thing, that's bad. It doesn't matter what you were feeling when you did it.

Love makes people do some really shitty things. "I love you and I want you to not go to hell, so I'm going to beat the gay out of you", for example. That love is genuine, and it doesn't redeem the action.

The opposite is true as well, where people do good while hating it every minute. (No good example comes immediately to mind, and I'm spending too long on this post.) They don't lose points for having unvirtuous emotions. They did good, and that's enough.