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This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

okwu.edu

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Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#151

Post by caseysoftware »

givinguflac wrote: post #66
icebraining wrote: post #27

Yet another post for HN to one-up each other decrying the "PC culture" with plenty of "kids these days" rants, while completely avoiding taking the charitable position and putting ourselves in their shoes. The amount of hypocrisy that comes with the claims that these students should "learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas" is staggering. Guess what: these students are presenting us with an "uncomfortable idea" and th…

Are you suggesting people should not learn to cope with uncomfortable ideas? This is a pretty ridiculous comment you're making here. Freedom of speech and expression has, is, and always will be more important than one's personal comfort. That said, these people are just as free to voice these small minded, selfish complaints as I am to ignore them.

You're wasting your time.

Notice the response to your comment was "No one is arguing for this" instead of saying what he/she is actually arguing for.

Your time will be better spent picking the fuzzies off your favorite blanket.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#152

Post by mikeh1010 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #62
cJ0th wrote: post #11

"I like to offend people, because I think that everyone who gets offended, should be offended." -- Linus Torvalds

One takes offence, one does not give it. It's an idiopathic condition. I'm a white male, but I grew up being called Gwailo, Gaijin, Auslander, and when I finally returned to the anglosphere in my early teens, I was still an outsider as I spoke with a weird accent and was by that point a through-and-through third culture kid. I got the crap bullied out of me, and eventually figured out that it only hurt if I took it t…

This is good advice to a friend or a loved one who is going through bullying or other nastiness. It is not a good policy prescription for making our world a more equitable place - and yes, that's a goal we should all be striving towards.

I agree that in the face of bullying or racist speech, we should try to thicken our skin and move on with our lives and understand that the problem is on the part of the perpetrators, not with me. But that doesn't mean I don't think we should try to get rid of bullying and racism in our society..

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#153

Post by venomsnake »

coldpie wrote: post #90
madaxe_again wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One takes offence, one does not give it. It's an idiopathic condition. I'm a white male, but I grew up being called Gwailo, Gaijin, Auslander, and when I finally returned to the anglosphere in my early teens, I was still an outsider as I spoke with a weird accent and was by that point a through-and-through third culture kid. I got the crap bullied out of me, and eventually figured out that it only hurt if I took it t…

> Folks need to have thicker skin Why? Congratulations on being such a paragon of excellence. Why should we require such virtue of all humans? Instead of expecting you to develop a thick skin (are you sure this is a good thing?), why can't we try to reform your aggressors in the first place?

> why can't we try to reform your aggressors in the first place?

Because someone somewhere defines something about another group of people as aggression and we can go "reforming" them with impunity. Take a wild guess what the ranges of something could be ...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#154

Post by ucaetano »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #130
ucaetano wrote: post #12

"Oklahoma Wesleyan is not a “safe place”, but rather, a place to learn" Exactly, I don't get why people are trying to make universities, workplaces, clubs, or anywhere else "safe places". They should not be safe places, they should be places where you feel confronted, challenged and threatened by different ideas and points of view.

>Exactly, I don't get why people are trying to make universities, workplaces, clubs, or anywhere else "safe places". I'm not directly disagreeing with you here or putting words in your mouth. I realize you are not saying safe spaces should not exist. Instead I want to make the argument that having safe spaces is reasonable. People make safe spaces _within_ universities and other institutions for the same reason some…

I agree with most of the points you made, specially that there must be safe spaces, but I don't think an university classroom should be one of them. Your home? Yes. A doctor's office? Yes. The student counsellor's office in the university? Yes. And so on.

"Although a safe space sometimes requires limiting certain discussions" That makes no sense in a university IMHO. Students could be excused of classes due to previous traumatic experiences, not the other way around.

No discussion should be silenced because the topic triggers or bothers someone. Sure, we can be sensitive about it, and take precautionary measures (warn the students in advance of the topic, etc.), but at absolutely no point, IMHO, should a discussion in an university be limited because it bothers, annoys, disrespects or triggers someone.

Yes, that opens room for some awful, violent and disrespectful points of view, but so many pillars of modern society were once those same awful, violent and disrespectful POVs.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#155

Post by pbnjay »

frobozz wrote: post #61
sago wrote: post #6

I think the world would be better if, before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view. Because 'political correctness' isn't the cancer at the heart of social politics, it is straw-manning. On both sides of every issue. I'd be surprised, perhaps even amazed, if Dr Piper had represented the complaint in any way…

Indeed. Either the complainant is a troll, or doesn't exist. No normal person would attend a sermon at the chapel of a given faith, and complain that the sermon victimises them for being a poor practitioner of that faith. This is doubly true when its about something universal like love, rather than how well you practice some specific ritual.

Except at religious schools, generally chapel is not voluntary, but required. People tend to pick churches where they are NOT uncomfortable, versus in a college chapel they will be more edgy for just this reason - to get their students to actually think about issues.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#156

Post by jbob2000 »

SeanDav wrote: post #92
sago wrote: post #6

I think the world would be better if, before you're allowed to respond to someone being wrong, you have to first be able to express their position in a way that they agree represents their view. Because 'political correctness' isn't the cancer at the heart of social politics, it is straw-manning. On both sides of every issue. I'd be surprised, perhaps even amazed, if Dr Piper had represented the complaint in any way…

A little research will produce a vast number of examples of political correctness with real consequences and not just "straw-manning". Here is a recent example: A Canadian university cancels a yoga class because yoga comes "from a culture that “experienced oppression, cultural genocide and diasporas due to colonialism and western supremacy,” In a world that can do that, I don't find it surprising that a student could…

Just to add some more info; it was the student union that was running the yoga class and cancelled it, the university administration had no part in its cancellation. This was wholly done by students.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#157

Post by lmm »

coldpie wrote: post #90
madaxe_again wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One takes offence, one does not give it. It's an idiopathic condition. I'm a white male, but I grew up being called Gwailo, Gaijin, Auslander, and when I finally returned to the anglosphere in my early teens, I was still an outsider as I spoke with a weird accent and was by that point a through-and-through third culture kid. I got the crap bullied out of me, and eventually figured out that it only hurt if I took it t…

> Folks need to have thicker skin Why? Congratulations on being such a paragon of excellence. Why should we require such virtue of all humans? Instead of expecting you to develop a thick skin (are you sure this is a good thing?), why can't we try to reform your aggressors in the first place?

> Congratulations on being such a paragon of excellence. Why should we require such virtue of all humans?

Because modern society and civilization rests entirely on the ability of people to tolerate being offended. It's what made the enlightenment possible. It's what makes scientific inquiry possible. It underlies every improvement to the human condition, because any new idea is offensive to someone.

If you can't do that then we will try to help you improve yourself if you can (and you want to), and try to give you a place to have a comfortable life if you can't. But there isn't and can't be a place for you at a university, where accommodating you would disrupt important work that will ultimately improves everyone's lives.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#158

Post by EthanHeilman »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83
maaku wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back yo…

Actually white heterosexual middle class males can totally appreciate these things. Imagine what it is like to be white/asian in a country where a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by black men and where black on white crimes are 5.6 times more common than white on black crimes [1]. Imagine what it is like to be Christian when a disproportionate number of terror attacks are committed by Islamic types. M…

Linking to a post on the website of a White Supremacist organisation such as AmRen (American Renaissance) will probably hurt your argument more than help it.

>Jared Taylor founded The New Century Foundation[0], a self-styled white supremacist think tank known primarily for American Renaissance, its online journal. The journal promotes pseudo-scientific studies that attempt to demonstrate the intellectual and cultural superiority of whites and publishes articles on the supposed decline of American society because of integrationist social policies. - [1]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation

[1]: http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrori...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#159

Post by Tenhundfeld »

coldpie wrote: post #126
adventured wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact it's being very openly argued all over the place in US culture today. The recent famous video of the Yale professor that was trying to talk rationally to the irrational students around him - it was all about the students claiming they had a right to not be offended, and the notion that their feelings trumped freedom of speech.

I'm sorry, I don't know what video you're referring to. What rational point was the professor trying to make? That white people dressing in racially-charged costumes should not be shunned?

I think this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEFD_JVYd0

Along with some NYT coverage on this general topic: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/11/02/when-a-gener...

This issue of students complaining about trigger warnings and the need for safe spaces certainly seems to be increasingly prevalent, but that could just be due to the media giving it more attention.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#160

Post by PedroBatista »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #108
yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually white heterosexual middle class males can totally appreciate these things. Imagine what it is like to be white/asian in a country where a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by black men and where black on white crimes are 5.6 times more common than white on black crimes [1]. Imagine what it is like to be Christian when a disproportionate number of terror attacks are committed by Islamic types. M…

I'm asian. I don't feel threatened by black crime when it's also shown that police target black people for arrest more than whites and that the system is often stacked against black people. I'm more uncomfortable that white males are shooting up schools in my country several times a year because there's nothing being done pointing this demographic out. Your experience doesn't reflect the experience of all others.

That's why there is something called Statistics and they show that you are objectively wrong.

Now, about your feelings and uncomfortableness it's up to you.

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