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Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

piketty.blog.lemonde.fr

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Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#141

Post by krapp »

fleitz wrote: post #108
krapp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to suspect that as any thread on Hacker News involving the Middle East, Islam or Islamic terrorism grows longer, the probability of someone calling Mohammed a pedophile approaches 1.

Calling? It's a pretty well established 'fact' covered by Islamic sacred text, Its an assertion held by 1.8 billion Muslims. The books could well be works of fiction, the vast majority of people who assert the truth of the books are Muslim. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Mohammed was neither a prophet, nor a child rapist, but Muslims believe these things bring glory to him. However, to be respectful of their fa…

You seem to be reading an intent behind my comment that isn't there. Whether or not it's relevant to the actual topic at hand, it seems inevitable that it will be brought up.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#142

Post by Mikeb85 »

_3u10 wrote: post #140
Mikeb85 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind it's not so much that Mohamed was a 'paedophile' by our modern definition, rather that the definition has changed over time. Even in our own culture it was once the norm to betroth daughters to suitors while they were pre-pubescent, and to marry them as soon as they reached puberty... Polygamy is also a result of a violent era in which there were more unattached women than men - and in which having a hus…

Exactly, rational people realize that we may have learned something in the past 1300 years. Irrational people believe that whatever we were doing 1300 years ago is what we should be doing today because... God said so.

To add to this, some people (both Christian and Islamic fundamentalists) believe any sort of progress is 'wrong' (or at least superfluous) because Jesus will return (ironically Muslims also believe Jesus will return, but that he's Muslim, and not quite the son of God, just a great prophet) to smite their enemies anyway and bring about the 'end'.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#143

Post by kobayashi »

gte525u wrote: post #111
kobayashi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no credible, facts-driven research to suggest that lack of wealth, access to health care, access to mental health care, or access to education have a direct correlation to individuals joining terrorist groups or the rise of such groups. It's just a common trope repeated because it fits with people's existing ideologies. Terrorism is much more complicated than that.

That's a bit generalizing. This paper[1] talks about the over-representation of engineers in violent Islamic organizations. Specifically talks about how there are fewer engineers in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia versus Palestine and other countries in the same type of groups. There seems to be /some/ correlation between economic opportunity and sub-segments of the population joining these types of groups. [1] http://www…

I can't read the paper now but I've read on that specific topic before. The assertions were usually that people drawn to the clear-cut answers of engineering also wanted to organize the world with definitive rights and wrongs, and those 'black or white, no shades of grey' people are more likely to agree with the zealotry of terrorist groups.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#144

Post by dragonwriter »

jules wrote: post #75
bosdev wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't we say that gunmen attack Planned Parenthoods because of income inequality in the United States? I do. I think the Planned Parenthood shooting is due to a combination of mental illness and lack of education. I don't think it really matters which crazy ideology you pick, you can use it to justify your actions. And if the crazy, uneducated, people weren't shooting up a Planned Parenthood, they would be shoo…

If it's income inequality, then why are most terrorists highly educated and relatively well off?

> If it's income inequality, then why are most terrorists highly educated and relatively well off?

As I understand it, Middle Eastern terrorists are disproportionately from the thin and relatively insecure middle class, neither the oligarchs nor the people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder.

I don't think this is at all inconsistent with income inequality being a major contributing factor, though its not as simple as personal poverty being a driving factor.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#145

Post by eli_gottlieb »

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

There can be multiple real counterfactuals based on multiple contributing causal factors.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#146

Post by kobayashi »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #138
kobayashi wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that the factors are anything but consistent. The closest thing to consistency is the personal desire for an all-encompassing identity, being a part of something bigger than one's self, and being raised in a society or culture that reveres illiberalism and the combination of religion and state.

You don't think infusion of cash, weapons, and power vacuums into such areas by world's power players are a consistent factor?

The occurrence or absence of cash is too broad to draw a correlation to terrorism. Same goes for weapons. Power vacuums enable organized actors but those same actors (in this case Islamists) can also gain a foothold by coopting the democratic process of a powerful state. None of those things address the mentality of terrorists or the ideology of groups that give rise to organized terrorism.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#147

Post by jules »

dragonwriter wrote: post #144
jules wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's income inequality, then why are most terrorists highly educated and relatively well off?

> If it's income inequality, then why are most terrorists highly educated and relatively well off? As I understand it, Middle Eastern terrorists are disproportionately from the thin and relatively insecure middle class, neither the oligarchs nor the people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. I don't think this is at all inconsistent with income inequality being a major contributing factor, though its not as si…

At the very least that data does not really fit the theory. At some point you have to consider that when the facts do not fit the theory perhaps the theory is wrong, rather than to try to spin the facts in such a way that they fit the theory in a weird way. I think some people are too attached to a particular theory being true, rather than finding out the right theory.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#148

Post by wdewind »

beat wrote: post #114
nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

Rudimentary talk-radio analysis aside... I find Daesh far scarier than other Islamic fundamentalist movements because their techniques are more sophisticated and their aim is much higher. The "they're killing us!" argument is so silly... terror attacks are to stir western nations into violent action, not to actually significantly injure us. And it works - far too many Americans and Europeans live and act politically…

> I find Daesh far scarier than other Islamic fundamentalist movements because their techniques are more sophisticated and their aim is much higher.

Daesh are basically the same people with the same goals as the other Islamic fundamentalist movements you are familiar with. Read the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_...

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#149

Post by CM30 »

jules wrote: post #135
kohanz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between the stated motive of ISIS and what enables them to exist and grow. I have a hard time believing that they can be so effective in their recruitment efforts with a message based entirely on an interpretation of an old book. It is more plausible to me that they prey on desperate, mentally unwell, and disaffected people to join their cause.

This is simply false. Most terrorists are highly educated. The 9/11 terrorists had a college education, some had PhD's.

Being educated does not mean you're above believing in bullshit. There are a lot of highly educated people with a college education or a PhD who believe him ghosts, crop circles, bigfoot, alien abductions, the 'dangers' of GM food, conspiracy theories or think that vaccines cause autism.

That doesn't make those beliefs more plausible, regardless of if a certain amount of smart people believe in them. Similarly, it doesn't shield people from religious extremism, or any other form of extreme view for that matter. People are irrational, some lack critical thinking skills (and everyone forgets to use them at least some of time). You don't become a Vulcan the minute you get through college.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#150

Post by _prototype_ »

bosdev wrote: post #67
judah wrote: post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

What is the origin of the Islamic extremism? Why does this group of Muslims kill people while the vast majority do not?

The biggest issue is the believe that there is a separation of "extreme islam" vs "mainstream (non-violent) islam" when the calls for violence in the religion are extremely clear and in their holy book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBpmPXv1R4
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