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Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

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Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#71
The way I see it:

Polygamy:

Some men having a chance at a huge family. Most women having a chance at a family, but with a shared husband. Many men having no chance at a family at all.

Monogamy:

Most men having a chance at a family. Most women having a chance at a family.

Now consider that the more one has to lose, the better behaved one is. When men have a chance for a family, they'll do what is needed to make the attempt for a family (normally being productive members of society), after which they get far more needs met than when alone (consider that loneliness is quite dangerous for a person) and they likely have more to lose (especially if they have children). Thus they are more behaved.

But in a polygamous society, there is far less of a chance. So more men decide to not play by the rules. They will seek out more dangerous means to meet their immediate needs.

All this being said, it isn't the marriage that matters. It is the family that does. A society that only allows monogamy on paper, but which allows a polygamous marriages, and where a divide begins to exist meaning that you have many men without a chance of having a family will have the same issues.

Also, I'm not to sure what happens when many women don't have a chance for a family. While one might think it would work the same, there are a few key differences. A man can be responsible for multiple simultaneous pregnancies, but a woman cannot. A woman has, historically, had a level of assurance of the legitimacy of their children that a man does not, and on average men tend to be more physically powerful than women. Also of note is that those last two factors stop being a significant difference with technology (paternity tests and guns being respective examples), so historic data may not fit what trends we will see in a technologically advanced society. (To say nothing of technology increasingly being able to meet a person's needs, which will increasingly make it harder to plot future events based on past data.)

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#72
post #59

IMO, humans, male or female, seek the best mate. "Best" is subjective but usually easy to understand. Men want youthful, beautiful women whereas women want strong, resourceful men. In enforcing monogamy, we ensured that male got what they wanted (a young woman) and now, that male can focus his attention on work. This worked well for women too (if they had a choice of male) since they now have a partner as well. Adult…

> Men want youthful, beautiful women > women want strong, resourceful men Ugh.

Are you against the notion that each gender generally has different characteristics they prefer or just the simplistic nature in which the parent comment expressed that notion?

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#73
post #59

IMO, humans, male or female, seek the best mate. "Best" is subjective but usually easy to understand. Men want youthful, beautiful women whereas women want strong, resourceful men. In enforcing monogamy, we ensured that male got what they wanted (a young woman) and now, that male can focus his attention on work. This worked well for women too (if they had a choice of male) since they now have a partner as well. Adult…

Monogamy is not practical without heavy penalties on non-monogamous relationships.

If by "monogamy" one means having one stable primary relationship at a time while having dalliances with secondary/tertiary partners and transitory partners, then "monogamy" seems to fit the baseline human sexual behavior for the majority of people, across cultures, and across history.

Today, since adultery/serial monogamy/polyandry/polygamy etc. is a joke and widely "accepted", there is no incentive to get married. So many 18-35 waste their youthful lives just dating, dating, meeting jerks, partying, jumping from partner to partner....instead of focusing on building a REAL stable relationship.

If society looked at the actual data, and adjusted to the patterns of behavior people actually exhibit -- serial monogamy with possible secondary partners -- then I suspect there would be more scope and opportunity for building stable real relationships. There would be less pressure on keeping the strictures of such a monogamy. It would be easier for people to remain "faithful." There would be less drama. There would be less sexual dissatisfaction and boredom.

(My data: My previous relationship was with someone "poly." My current relationship is traditionally monogamous, to which I do adhere.)

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#74
post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

The US isn't moving away from monogamy (in the sense of this study, as the only formally-recognized form of marriage.) Its arguably moving toward marriage itself being less of an expectation, but its not clear how that relates to the study.

It probably relates because the marriages themselves don't matter, it is the family that forms and the impacts that has on individuals that do. Thus if you had some society which allowed only monogamy but also allowed concubines, you would likely see the same issues as caused by polygamy. Or if you had a society that didn't do marriage at all, but the relationships that formed tended to be greater towards polygamy than monogamy. (You can also have the reverse, polyandry, but this study doesn't seem to look into those societies to see how they differ from monogamous and polygamous ones.)

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#75
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out. It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And yo…

But which is the cause, and which is the effect? Could it be that welfare benefits have reduced the necessity for a woman to hold on to a man for financial support, so these men are now "adrift" and more likely to end up incarcerated? It might be interesting to look at welfare benefits and incarceration rates before and after 1964.

Also child support laws which could create an incentive for having multiple different fathers before settling down with one, so that you get more financial support than had one had the same number of children with just their husband.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#76
There's an often repeated assertion in some of the less glamorous men's forums online that in online dating, etc. The top 20% of guys in terms of looks and status get 80% of the dates while the dating demand for women of child bearing age is more evenly spread out. This would tend to be indicative of polygamy being a natural tendency, even today, if social norms did not interfere.

Has there been any research on this on okcupid data, etc?

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't moving away from monogamy (in the sense of this study, as the only formally-recognized form of marriage.) Its arguably moving toward marriage itself being less of an expectation, but its not clear how that relates to the study.

It probably relates because the marriages themselves don't matter, it is the family that forms and the impacts that has on individuals that do. Thus if you had some society which allowed only monogamy but also allowed concubines, you would likely see the same issues as caused by polygamy. Or if you had a society that didn't do marriage at all, but the relationships that formed tended to be greater towards polygamy th…

> It probably relates because the marriages themselves don't matter, it is the family that forms and the impacts that has on individuals that do.

That's speculative, and not at all what the study found.

It could be that that's what's important; it could be, instead, that what is important is the social expectation of marriage combined with the opportunities available for it. It could be something else. It could be a combination of any of the three.

> Thus if you had some society which allowed only monogamy but also allowed concubines, you would likely see the same issues as caused by polygamy.

Since concubinage is generally exclusive in the same way as marriage is (and exclusive of marriage), you'd expect in pretty much any case it to have similar social effects to polygyny (if it isn't just considered a form of polygyny in which there is a wife with a formally preferred status, which is common in polygyny.)

> Or if you had a society that didn't do marriage at all, but the relationships that formed tended to be greater towards polygamy than monogamy.

OTOH, if it is the social expectation and opportunity aspect of marriage that is at issue, a society which lacked the formal marriage and social expectations tied to it might not have the problems of a formally polygynous society even if the informal relations formed were generally polgynous rather than monogamous.

And if, on yet another hand, there is a stabilizing effect of socially-recognized relationship, the absence of social recognition might produce problems similar to those in a formally polygynous society regardless of the form of the informal relationships that form.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

> Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining power of the few males who are marriage material. I don't see how any of this holds up in today's…

Rape is illegal. Since males can't force females to procreate, female choice is the deciding agent in determining who mates with who. Females choose mates based on their genetic fitness and their ability to provide resources. Genetic fitness is determined by all of: a male's ability to acquire resources (wealth), his looks (square jaw), talents (guitar player), personality (funny), social status (fame/popularity).

If a female no longer requires resource provision because she is earning enough money, she will prioritize genetic fitness in her mate selection, and so will be MORE willing to engage in a polygamous arrangement because polygamy can get her access to a greater diversity and quality of genetic material. Monogamy is only necessary for the female if it will provide her with resources or protection. Monogamy is not necessary for her to get access to sperm--sperm is cheap. She doesn't worry about money and can instead get the best genetic material without the best resources.

Therefore, female wealth drives polygamy.

But male economic inequality also drives polygamy.

Both factors increase polygamy. The only way to reverse these pressures would be to legalize rape and return to a state of nature. This would dethrone female agency as the factor that determines who will reproduce with who, and would elevate male violence to the deciding factor.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

> Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining power of the few males who are marriage material. I don't see how any of this holds up in today's…

The best recipe for monogamy is clear:

* Keep rape illegal

* Reduce male economic inequality

* Reduce female personal wealth

Since rape would still be illegal, female desire would still be the agent that determines reproduction and mating. But since females have no personal property, they would have to acquire resources by accessing a male's resources. Since males are all roughly equal, she will prefer to find a male who does not provide resources to other females.

Voila! Monogamy.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduced male fighting over mates, males having relative certainty over paternity and, therefore, increased genetic interest in participating in the raising of children turns out to be useful for building a civilization. The causality is obvious, given a bit of reflection.

> increased genetic interest This only makes sense if you think the individual is the primary site of selection pressure. It need not be. In fact, it probably isn't. Genes compete and cooperate with each other across populations. An example of selection pressure that is supported beyond the interest of one individual's reproductive success is the gay uncle hypothesis: Kin selection means that genes that favor a group…

While that is certainly a mitigating factor, individual genetic interest is still a large component in male investment in children.

European-style civilization is probably not possible without it, as I expect we will soon learn.

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