I was hoping to see the item they show screenshotted in various states of redaction, but I don't see any link to it. Anyone see one?
A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
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Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#12Key quote: "According to the Justice Department’s inspector general, the FBI issued a staggering 143,074 NSLs between 2003 and 2005. And every NSL was accompanied by a categorical and permanent gag order." That's almost one per 2000 americans. I wonder how does this number compare to actual court orders.
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Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#13Props to the man for sticking this out for so long. He first point blank refuses to comply, the FBI then withdraws the NSL but keeps the gag order in place and he then fights them for an additional decade to get the gag order lifted. That's tenacity. This reminds me of the Lavabit case, wonder why the one shut down their service and the other managed to simply reject the requests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabi…
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Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#14Props to the man for sticking this out for so long. He first point blank refuses to comply, the FBI then withdraws the NSL but keeps the gag order in place and he then fights them for an additional decade to get the gag order lifted. That's tenacity. This reminds me of the Lavabit case, wonder why the one shut down their service and the other managed to simply reject the requests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabi…
The Lavabit case was complicated by Ladar Levison's handling of the DOJ's request, and by the fact that his security architecture was "all-or-none" in a way that did not allow him to selectively disclose only the encrypted messages DOJ asked for. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7774823
I see. So he should have simply stonewalled at the very first request, not wait until it dealt with someone he wanted to protect.
On the other hand the story above does not relate whether or not there were previous requests there is a passage that indicates that the operator of the service had knowledge of the person involved.
"Nick wasn’t sure why the FBI was demanding the information, but he knew a little about the subscriber the FBI was apparently investigating, and he doubted that the investigation was a legitimate one. "
He also wondered why the FBI did not involve a judge and in the Lavabit case a judge clearly was involved.
Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#15Props to the man for sticking this out for so long. He first point blank refuses to comply, the FBI then withdraws the NSL but keeps the gag order in place and he then fights them for an additional decade to get the gag order lifted. That's tenacity. This reminds me of the Lavabit case, wonder why the one shut down their service and the other managed to simply reject the requests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabi…
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Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Lavabit case was complicated by Ladar Levison's handling of the DOJ's request, and by the fact that his security architecture was "all-or-none" in a way that did not allow him to selectively disclose only the encrypted messages DOJ asked for. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7774823
I see. So he should have simply stonewalled at the very first request, not wait until it dealt with someone he wanted to protect. On the other hand the story above does not relate whether or not there were previous requests there is a passage that indicates that the operator of the service had knowledge of the person involved. "Nick wasn’t sure why the FBI was demanding the information, but he knew a little about the…
To protect his users and avoid imprisonment, he would have had to fix both problems: not taunting and slow-rolling the DOJ, and doing that having designed a system that either (a) didn't give him the technical ability to decrypt messages or (b) allowed him to easily do that selectively.
The real problem with Lavabit is that it was incompetently designed and made security promises it was flatly and obviously unable to keep. From the transcripts, it seems like Levison tried to represent to the DOJ that his system was stronger than it was, when it was clear to anyone technical that he could easily comply with DOJ's demands.
Regarding judges: it may be that Levison happened after reform of the national security letter laws, so that simply as a result of timing, Levison's predicament had to involve a judge. However: even if that hadn't been the case, a judge would have been involved as soon as Levison (or Calyx) refused to comply.
Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#17now that the gag order is not in place, can we learn who the FBI was spying on? was it legitimate? if not, who approved it?
this is a pointless victory unless we use it for accountability.
Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see. So he should have simply stonewalled at the very first request, not wait until it dealt with someone he wanted to protect. On the other hand the story above does not relate whether or not there were previous requests there is a passage that indicates that the operator of the service had knowledge of the person involved. "Nick wasn’t sure why the FBI was demanding the information, but he knew a little about the…
To protect his users and avoid imprisonment, he would have had to fix both problems: not taunting and slow-rolling the DOJ, and doing that having designed a system that either (a) didn't give him the technical ability to decrypt messages or (b) allowed him to easily do that selectively. The real problem with Lavabit is that it was incompetently designed and made security promises it was flatly and obviously unable to…
I think he agreed with that perspective, otherwise he would not have shut it down, clearly it was not salvageable at that point.
Still, in spite of the damage done and the technical flaws that was quite the holding action and I think quite a few companies would have folded and much earlier.
Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
To protect his users and avoid imprisonment, he would have had to fix both problems: not taunting and slow-rolling the DOJ, and doing that having designed a system that either (a) didn't give him the technical ability to decrypt messages or (b) allowed him to easily do that selectively. The real problem with Lavabit is that it was incompetently designed and made security promises it was flatly and obviously unable to…
I think he agreed with that perspective, otherwise he would not have shut it down, clearly it was not salvageable at that point. Still, in spite of the damage done and the technical flaws that was quite the holding action and I think quite a few companies would have folded and much earlier.
What was the point of his "holding action"? DOJ not only got what it wanted, but, as a result of Levison's hapless attempt to wriggle out of their request, they got Lavabit's TLS keys as well! Had Levison simply complied up front, he'd have held on to the keys, and been able to fold the site up gracefully, losing only the specific account DOJ targeted.
Re: A Decade-Old Gag Order, Lifted
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think he agreed with that perspective, otherwise he would not have shut it down, clearly it was not salvageable at that point. Still, in spite of the damage done and the technical flaws that was quite the holding action and I think quite a few companies would have folded and much earlier.
What was the point of his "holding action"? DOJ not only got what it wanted, but, as a result of Levison's hapless attempt to wriggle out of their request, they got Lavabit's TLS keys as well! Had Levison simply complied up front, he'd have held on to the keys, and been able to fold the site up gracefully, losing only the specific account DOJ targeted.
Panic. When cornered people make strange moves. It's easy enough to look at this rationally after the fact but I'm trying to imagine being in the focal point of such a powerplay and I'm not sure I'd make every move by the book.