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Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

piketty.blog.lemonde.fr

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Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#91

Post by manachar »

judah wrote: post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

Okay, and why is Islamic extremism taking root and spreading?

It's like a body, you've got loads of bacteria all over your body, including some nasty MRSA stuff on your skin. This isn't normally a problem. But sometimes something can trigger a situation where the bad bacteria can spread and literally eat your body.

ISIS would be a footnote in an odd corner of the world if it weren't for favorable conditions for them to flourish.

This very much includes Islamic extremism as their call to legitimacy as a caliphate resonates with far too many.

It is absolutely not a red herring to point to the root conditions for ISIS success. It's incorrect if one thinks it's ONLY income inequality, compared to an interplay of conditions (Iraq destabilization, income inequality, Islamic extremism, and geopolitical machinations providing a destabilized Syria amongst them).

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#92

Post by mikeash »

There is a lot of extremely opinionated and pointed discussion going on in these comments.

How many of you read the article?

How many of you read the original article, the one published in Le Monde, in French?

I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the people here criticizing what Piketty is saying don't even know what he is saying.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#93

Post by tosseraccount »

No Wait! Global Warming Caused ISIS ! Anti-capitalist Naomi Klein says ISIS and global warming caused by same forces : http://junkscience.com/2015/11/anti-capitalist-naomi-klein-s...

No wait: Obama caused ISIS : http://www.nationalreview.com/article/386354/how-obama-cause...

wait more ... America caused ISIS : http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-th...

Clinton says Dick Cheney caused ISIS : http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Clinton-Cheney-Iraq-ISIS/20...

Kerry says Israel caused ISIS: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/whos-right-kerry-believes-isi...

Wait ....

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#94

Post by jules »

criley2 wrote: post #42
nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

"I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth." Because they're proven masters at propaganda and messaging. To take prop at face value is the definition of naive. "ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia." That's their justification for their actions, not the reason. Come on. Recruiting for ISIS pays $5000 - $10…

No doubt that for some the motivation is financial, but do you think that the motivation for the 1000+ people who left from Europe to join IS in Syria the motivation is financial? Do you think that for the guy who drives a bomb truck in Syria the motivation is financial?

This is not about putting blame anywhere, but about acknowledging an essential piece of the puzzle so that the problem can be solved. Note that I used to think as you do but a couple of months ago I started to do some research into what actually motivates terrorists and groups like ISIS and I came to the conclusion that a huge part of it is religious. That theory simply fits the facts much better than any other.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#95

Post by [deleted] »

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

[deleted]

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#96

Post by RickHull »

bosdev wrote: post #67
judah wrote: post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

What is the origin of the Islamic extremism? Why does this group of Muslims kill people while the vast majority do not?

Many Muslims are subject to extreme indoctrination and brainwashing regarding the metaphysics of martyrdom. Jihadist imams have figured out the virality of this particular meme, and the environment in which it may take root.

Depressed economic conditions end up gifting jihadist recruiters with more reasons for individuals to join up and become a martyr.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#97

Post by Brakenshire »

nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

ISIS is a fundamentalist millenarian dead cult making up some thousands of people, the question and the issue is why they haven't been run out of the areas where they operate by the ordinary people that live there, and their existing power groups. It is completely uncontroversial that ISIS are substantially tapping into existing and real sectarian grievances in the area. In Syria, that is down to a lack of development in rural Sunnis areas, and human rights abuses by the Shia-led regime. In Iraq, it is down to the loss of power of Sunni groups after the fall of Saddam, and the transition in power and patronage towards the Shia majority. Just saying over and over again that ISIS is evil is just repeating an obvious truth, the question is how do explain their success, and how do you undercut their power base, and a substantial part of that is to do with the allocation of money and power for the Sunni areas in Syria and Iraq.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#98

Post by criley2 »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #84
criley2 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your country was destroyed, there was no jobs, you had no money, no food, your home was crumbling, your siblings starving, your parents helpless... and you were 17 and powerless, and someone offered you $10,000 to do it... would you? Would you do something terrible to ensure that your family got a huge payday that would put food on their table for potentially years?

No. No I would not murder dozens of innocent people. There's a lot of poverty in the world and the vast majority of the impoverished do not commit such atrocities.

"no I wouldn't"

I guess it was too much to ask you to walk a mile in their shoes, because we internet dwelling rich folk literally cannot comprehend poverty on this level, of watching your family die before your eyes as a teenager.

"vast majority of the impoverished do not commit such atrocities."

The vast majority don't have a years pay untaxed offered, never have to make the choice. Easy to say they won't do something when they have no option to do it.

Then again, with how INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL ISIS has been at recruiting perhaps you need to reevaluate your opinion of how the impoverished of the world behave when given opportunity.

Many impoverished will loot during riots or engage in widespread gang violence in cities, they'll overthrow secular governments in favor of Islamic ones in the Arab Spring, they'll take the money and kill for ISIS.

I think people need to be more honest and realize that true destitution means they don't have to play within the bounds of economic and moral systems. We're controlled by our jobs and our money, and if we have neither, we will do whatever is necessary to provide for ourselves and our families, including hurting people "from other tribes".

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#99

Post by beat »

cmg wrote: post #36
[deleted] wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

It has everything to do with it. Imperialism destabilized the region, led to the removal of the stable and sovereign Iraqi government and the fomenting of the Syrian civil war (to the point of funding elements that became ISIS) with the aim of removing that government as well. The results of all of this created the conditions for extremism in general and ISIS in particular to arise and build.

I don't think the idea that US intervention in Iraq is to blame for the Syrian civil war holds true, considering that revolution swept across huge swaths of the Arab world with Arab Spring. Syria was as ripe for revolution as Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Yemen. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, it'd just be Saddam Hussein dealing with rebels instead. Baathism is a dead end government style, out of touch with today's world. Only the rich oil kingdoms have been able to avoid Arab Spring, and not by a whole lot.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#100

Post by notacoward »

mikeash wrote: post #62
nateberkopec wrote: post #29

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

Things don't have a single cause. "ISIS grew out of staggeringly unequal distribution of Mideast oil wealth" and "ISIS is motivated by extreme interpretations of Islam" are able to coexist perfectly well. Do you have any examples of "the same people" being inconsistent here? Because usually when people complain about inconsistency like this, it's actually different people being mentally categorized together, not actu…

Unbelievably well stated. Kudos.

(And I get downvoted for saying something nice? Some people have way too much invested in the opposing POV, and way too little courage.)

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