Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#21

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:03 PM UTC

ap3 wrote: post #3

AdrianRossouw wrote: post #2

> In cultures that permit men to take multiple wives, the intra-sexual competition that occurs causes greater levels of crime, violence, poverty and gender inequality than in societies that institutionalize and practice monogamous marriage. Wouldn't that just be any culture that has a significantly offset male-female ratio?

In a specific cohort lets say age 18-35 - is the only thing that matters for this study "access" to women not how many women a man can married? Wonder what the polygamy male-female ratio is compared to current societies with skewed ratios (CN / IN)?

> In a specific cohort lets say age 18-35 - is the only thing that matters for this study "access" to women not how many women a man can married?

No. What seems to matter in the study is whether men have acceptable marriage prospects. (It'd be interesting to see, in that context, whether permitting same-sex marriage reinforces the effect observed and further reduces the same problems. It'd also be interesting to see, as marriage itself becomes less of an expectation, whether the effect is more from men being married -- in which case denormalizing marriage would be expected to reverse the benefits -- or whether the effect is more from men not being alienated by being unable to meet a social expectation of marriage -- in which case denormalizing marriage would be expected to reinforce the benefits.)

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#22

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:04 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

The US isn't moving away from monogamy (in the sense of this study, as the only formally-recognized form of marriage.)

Its arguably moving toward marriage itself being less of an expectation, but its not clear how that relates to the study.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#23

Post by TorKlingberg » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:06 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #13

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

Fewer married people and more divorces do not equal polygamy. Rather people have a series of monogamous relationships.

You post then ventures into outright misogyny that doesn't belong here. Also the front page of 'rexresearch.com' is not very confidence inspiring.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#24

Post by carsongross » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:07 PM UTC

RyanRies wrote: post #4

How do we know which one is the cause and which one is the effect? Or that it's not just yet another case of correlation mistaken for causation? Do more intense levels of gender inequality lead to polygamous marriage, or does polygamous marriage lead to more intense levels of gender inequality?

Reduced male fighting over mates, males having relative certainty over paternity and, therefore, increased genetic interest in participating in the raising of children turns out to be useful for building a civilization.

The causality is obvious, given a bit of reflection.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#25

Post by vlunkr » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:08 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #13

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

I know it's anecdotal, but what you describe doesn't seem to have anything to do with the world I live in. You really need sources for a claim like that.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#26

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

> I'm not against polygamy or polyandry

Pedantic, perhaps, but while its generally acceptable to use "polygamy" to mean "polygyny" when you aren't discussing "polyandry" (because virtually all real-world polygamy is polygyny), if you are explicitly discussing both forms, its should be "polygyny and polyandry", "polygamy" includes both.

> On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Its really weird to call monogamous marriages "traditional" when comparing them to the polygynous marriages, since while the latter have fallen out of favor progressively in the last several centuries, they have quite a long tradition pretty much everywhere.

That said, its actually in many places a long tradition for kept mistresses, particularly of powerful men, to be fairly open.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#27

Post by s_dev » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:11 PM UTC

analyst74 wrote: post #14

beccasanchez wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

It's not just inequality between males, but also the wellness of poor people. If people worry less about starvation, they will put less emphasis on potential partner's financial status.

That doesn't explain polygamy in the richer parts of the Middle East where it's far more common than Western Europe. Starvation or even significant malnourishment beyond ones own poor choices aren't common. Relative economic inequality is common though to both places.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#28

Post by snipethunder » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:15 PM UTC

I feel that this is almost an Tautology, I can also say "Polygamy reduces major social problems of monogamist cultures" and it is also true because the two are exclusive to each other.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#29

Post by FD3SA » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

TorKlingberg wrote: post #23

FD3SA wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

Fewer married people and more divorces do not equal polygamy. Rather people have a series of monogamous relationships. You post then ventures into outright misogyny that doesn't belong here. Also the front page of 'rexresearch.com' is not very confidence inspiring.

Biology is misogyny?

"Words that do not belong here"?

A dismissal of science combined with an accusation of blasphemy. Fascinating.

Furthermore, instead of immediately attacking the host of a file, perhaps consider first indulging in its contents. The book is by Sir John Glubb, a noted historian.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#30

Post by flubert » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #20

randyrand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out. It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And yo…

But which is the cause, and which is the effect? Could it be that welfare benefits have reduced the necessity for a woman to hold on to a man for financial support, so these men are now "adrift" and more likely to end up incarcerated? It might be interesting to look at welfare benefits and incarceration rates before and after 1964.