Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#11

Post by randyrand » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:43 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy.

Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#12

Post by Analemma_ » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

I don't know that the United States is "moving away from monogamy". I've certainly read more about polygamous relationships lately, but I think that's a consequence of the greater visibility afforded by the Internet, and the decreasing stigmatization of such relationships making people more likely to be open about it. I would want to see some hard evidence before just saying that polygamy is actually increasing in frequency though; I suspect it's no more or less prevalent than it ever was.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#13

Post by FD3SA » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Camillo wrote: post #6

Would the authors venture to make a prediction on what will happen as the US moves away from monogamy? Edit: I'm not talking about moving towards poligamy. I'm talking about moving away from monogamous marriage in general. To quote from the article: According to Henrich, monogamy’s main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and soci…

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery.

The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ideals of classical marriage, remain attractive for those who are uninformed of the reality on the ground.

Thus, young average men enter into marriage with women assuming lifelong monogamy, and are surprised to find their wives spending time with above average men.

Females of our species have no benefit to be gained by settling for second best genetic material. They want the best, and don't care who provides the provisioning for those offspring. Cuckolding is a powerful strategy for females to have their cake and eat it too, which is why it is so widespread in nature.

No advanced civilization has ever survived the onset of polygamy [1]. Will the west be an exception?

We live in interesting times.

1. http://www.rexresearch.com/glubb/glubb-empire.pdf

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#14

Post by analyst74 » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

beccasanchez wrote: post #10

RyanRies wrote: post #4

How do we know which one is the cause and which one is the effect? Or that it's not just yet another case of correlation mistaken for causation? Do more intense levels of gender inequality lead to polygamous marriage, or does polygamous marriage lead to more intense levels of gender inequality?

It has nothing to do with gender equality. It has to do with economic inequality between males. Economic inequality between males means more and more women are competing for a smaller supply of wealthy males. Increased demand for top males leads to gender inequality as more and more women compete for a smaller pool of rich men, reducing the bargaining power of every individual woman and increasing the bargaining powe…

It's not just inequality between males, but also the wellness of poor people.

If people worry less about starvation, they will put less emphasis on potential partner's financial status.

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#15

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:47 PM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #11

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession.

Its perhaps more visible, but is it really becoming more common? Where are the statistics showing this?

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#16

Post by tosseraccount » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

The real paper: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royptb/367/15...

(the source material about which the article is written )

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#17

Post by tosseraccount » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #13

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

Divorce rates at all time high?

Looks like multiple sources indicate it's down since 1979 in the U.S. ... https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=U.S.+divorce+rates&hl=...

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#18

Post by jnbiche » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

FD3SA wrote: post #13

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

Yes, it is. Marriage rates are at an all time low, divorce rates are at an all time high, never married rate is at an all time high, out of wedlock births are at an all time high, and there is no deterrent for adultery. The west has been in a soft-polygamy system since no-fault divorce was instigated. The only reason the illusion of classical marriage limps on is because the vestiges of the old system, mainly the ide…

> We live in interesting times.

Is that a play on the (probably apocryphal) Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times"?

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#19

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

AdrianRossouw wrote: post #2

> In cultures that permit men to take multiple wives, the intra-sexual competition that occurs causes greater levels of crime, violence, poverty and gender inequality than in societies that institutionalize and practice monogamous marriage. Wouldn't that just be any culture that has a significantly offset male-female ratio?

> Wouldn't that just be any culture that has a significantly offset male-female ratio?

A significantly-greater-than-1.0 male-to-female ratio would be a different cause of the same problem; polygyny produces it even without that ratio difference. (Polyandry would seem, in principle, to offset it, but there aren't lots of historical examples of that to study.)

Re: Monogamy reduces major social problems of polygamist cultures (2012)

#20

Post by venomsnake » Mon, Nov 30, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #11

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the U.S. moving away from monogamy? I'm not against polygamy or polyandry, but I don't see a trend in the near term. On the other hand, we've long had a tradition of traditional married couples where the man keeps a mistress on the side, usually in secret (though secrets don't tend to last very long).

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out.

It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And you have a self perpetuating mess instead of social fabric.