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Double paid traffic

wiki.hetzner.de

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Re: Double paid traffic

#51

Post by ullus12 »

Hetzner is not just saving on private peerings.

Most of their Servers are in east-germany where

  * labor,land,power,darkfibre is cheaper
  * they can harvest developement subs from the goverment [1]
Whereas peering (DE-CIX) is most dense in Frankfurt, West-Germany.

[1] https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht...

Re: Double paid traffic

#52

Post by bakhy »

what if, for example, Netflix did something like this, and charged a higher subscription fee to, e.g., Comcast customers? though i don't believe this would solve the problem, it might bring the issue of net neutrality closer to home for many customers, and weigh on their decision which ISP to take (if they even have the choice, which would be an issue in the US, i presume?). and it's ultimately fair - why would all users pay for this through their subscriptions, if only some ISPs violate net neutrality.

Re: Double paid traffic

#53

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

msandford wrote: post #44
thomaskcr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet is much more than just HTTP traffic - the purpose isn't to provide access to content so the fact that these are content providers (i.e. data is requested) doesn't matter. I can host my backups via a web server at home and wget them from my remote server, the fact I "requested" that from the remote server means nothing. The ISPs customers are paying for a connection to the ISPs network, nothing more. Ever…

What is the internet protocol by which you push data from one node to another without the other node's consent? Every one I can think of would generally be called a DoS attack. There's no such thing as "push" data, it's like trying to push a rope. Any reasonably sized data stream has the consent of both parties on the network.

The internet is not the web. SMTP is "push", VoIP is "push", scp from my local machine to a remote machine is "push" ... sure, there generally should be some form of consent on the part of the receiving party, but just because HTTP is limited to pulling stuff, doesn't mean there aren't less limited protocols around.

Re: Double paid traffic

#54

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

ullus12 wrote: post #45

DTAG is the Network Operator for most of German Business and Private Customers. Most DSL-Resellers are Business Customers of DTAG. So maybe there point of view, beeing more important than any public exchange, is not far fetched as it is most certainly a business reality. Hetzner making a stand for net neutrality is a joke. They are asking your money for better service.

If DTAG asked for 1 EUR/Gigabyte, would you still maintain that position? 10 EUR? 100 EUR? Is there any point where you would consider the behaviour of DTAG inappropriate/unfair?

BTW, nobody is denying that they in fact are an important ISP, where "important" means "lots of customers", which in turn means "lots of power". Someone holding a gun to your head also has a lot of power and thus is important to you - but power in neither case automatically implies that any offer the powerful party is making is a fair offer, be it that they ask you to give them all your money to avoid being killed, or that they ask you to pay massively above-market rates to avoid being unreachable for their customer base.

Re: Double paid traffic

#55

Post by merb »

ullus12 wrote: post #43
merb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simple not true (telekom customer). And I know a lot of people on Telekom. We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks. Our overall bandwidth with Telekom simply sucks. Most networks are really really slow, compared to Kabel Deutschland.

> We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks. and they were like "sure cosider it done"?

> and they were like "sure cosider it done"?

no. they tried to find a way with us. but after that it didn't worked they changed the routing and it worked.

Re: Double paid traffic

#56

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

ullus12 wrote: post #51

Hetzner is not just saving on private peerings. Most of their Servers are in east-germany where * labor,land,power,darkfibre is cheaper * they can harvest developement subs from the goverment [1] Whereas peering (DE-CIX) is most dense in Frankfurt, West-Germany. [1] https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht...

1. What's the logic here? Because a business is trying to reduce its expenses, it's wrong on any matter by default?

2. You are aware that DTAG does not peer at DE-CIX, so whether "peering is most dense" there has exactly no influence on whether Hetzner gets good connectivity to DTAG?

3. You are aware that Hetzner does peer at DE-CIX with 200 Gbit/s, with an open peering policy?

4. You are aware that Hetzner even peers at AMS-IX in Amsterdam with 100 Gbit/s? That link almost certainly is even more expensive than the one to DE-CIX.

see also, peering list close to the end: http://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/Rechenzentren_und_Anbindung...

Re: Double paid traffic

#57

Post by sigio »

ullus12 wrote: post #51

Hetzner is not just saving on private peerings. Most of their Servers are in east-germany where * labor,land,power,darkfibre is cheaper * they can harvest developement subs from the goverment [1] Whereas peering (DE-CIX) is most dense in Frankfurt, West-Germany. [1] https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht...

Actually... both of the Hetzner datacenters are in (former West) germany.

Re: Double paid traffic

#58

Post by ccozan »

fiber wrote: post #34
Ao7bei3s wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private peerings are very cost-effective for DTAG because DTAG usually takes money for them.

While that is certainly true, that is not what I meant. For one, it's very cheap to reach such exchanges for companies like Hetzner, because they usually operate their data centers on the same campus, to safe exactly on that backhaul cost to the exchange. By implication all the ISPs are expected to extend their network into these facilities to pick up traffic. While it's true that some ISPs operate big POPs near exch…

For our reference, you may want to check that list, it is really outdated/onesided [1], and not reflecting the reality. Better refer to ookla/netindex or other similar services [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_countries_by_Inte...

[2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-kushnick/americas-ugly-t...

Re: Double paid traffic

#59

Post by rmoriz »

Did anyone verify the information? I think it's a hoax to drive cusomers mad/against Deutsche Telekom.

- It's not possible to announce a specific (premium) routing for just a single IP address.

- Hetzner has no DTAG Transit anymore. none. Not even for specific customers. See AS24940

- Current DTAG->Hetzner traffic uses AS33891. See https://f-lga1.f.de.net.dtag.de/

Of course this does not object the non-peering-policy claims and high prices of DTAG in any way. It's well known in the German ISP scene.

Re: Double paid traffic

#60

Post by ullus12 »

sigio wrote: post #57
ullus12 wrote: post #51

Hetzner is not just saving on private peerings. Most of their Servers are in east-germany where * labor,land,power,darkfibre is cheaper * they can harvest developement subs from the goverment [1] Whereas peering (DE-CIX) is most dense in Frankfurt, West-Germany. [1] https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht...

Actually... both of the Hetzner datacenters are in (former West) germany.

was reffering to geographical, not political east/west
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