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Double paid traffic

wiki.hetzner.de

41–50 of 106 posts

Re: Double paid traffic

#41

"We at Hetzner Online do not support such policies and declare our support for full net neutrality." Bullshit. In the same breath they offer something that is entirely antithetical to their stated ethos, no matter how they spin it. This page demonstrates what they say and what they do are two different things. I interpret this as they're making a goldbrick statement of support in favor of net neutrality with the hope…

When Hetzner say "some Germany ISPs" they actually mean Deutsche Telekom – Germany's largest ISP with almost 50% market share and also the only Tier 1 network.

Deutsche Telekom has been squeezing everyone for transit bandwidth. They're also the only network and ISP to NOT peer with DE-CIX. (they only added their first 10Gbps uplink just a few months ago) I've even seen Akamai bottleneck for weeks on end until they agreed to pay for more 10Gbps ports to DTAG.

What Hetzner Online is offering is merely an effective solution to alleviating a real problem. Supporting net neutrality won't fix your paying users video streaming QoS issues.

As frustrating as it is as a matter of principle, many companies will want to utilize an offering like Hetzner's.

Re: Double paid traffic

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between Hetzner and a customer. They are both utilizing the ISP for the same purpose, transporting data. We still need to pay for an Internet connection for our servers. You're not paying the ISP for access to a specific person's server, you're paying to be part of their network which happens to be connected to other networks. Everyone pays to be part of the network. The end u…

But Hertzner aren't pushing data onto DTAG's network. The ISP's customers are requesting it.

The internet is much more than just HTTP traffic - the purpose isn't to provide access to content so the fact that these are content providers (i.e. data is requested) doesn't matter. I can host my backups via a web server at home and wget them from my remote server, the fact I "requested" that from the remote server means nothing.

The ISPs customers are paying for a connection to the ISPs network, nothing more. Every connection to the network is a node - in a network neutral world the fact they are a content provider is meaningless. If they need to push more data, they need to pay.

I really don't see the difference between this, and a large company attempting to send their backups via the web. We could easily set it up so the remote servers are "requesting" that data -- but it's not the cable subscriber's job to subsidize my network infrastructure so we lease a line to ensure the speed we need. We have over 100mbps connection on both sides, but that is only a 100mbps connection to the ISP. If we need to move data at that speed all the way from point A to B, then we need to pay for the infrastructure to do that.

Re: Double paid traffic

#43
post #40
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet you can expect Cable service (Kabeldeutschland/Vodafone) to be to be lossy/congested at every days peek hours. Whereas DTAG _does_ way better. I dont like it, but as others have said: Relying on transit peering will not work well once you reach certain traffic levels. Also you can get Servers from Strato (DTAG Sub) for about the same price as from Hetzner and pump your Traffic directly into a Tier1.

That is simple not true (telekom customer). And I know a lot of people on Telekom. We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks. Our overall bandwidth with Telekom simply sucks. Most networks are really really slow, compared to Kabel Deutschland.

> We even needed to contact Github to change our peering since the default route from Github to DTag just sucks.

and they were like "sure cosider it done"?

Re: Double paid traffic

#44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Hertzner aren't pushing data onto DTAG's network. The ISP's customers are requesting it.

The internet is much more than just HTTP traffic - the purpose isn't to provide access to content so the fact that these are content providers (i.e. data is requested) doesn't matter. I can host my backups via a web server at home and wget them from my remote server, the fact I "requested" that from the remote server means nothing. The ISPs customers are paying for a connection to the ISPs network, nothing more. Ever…

What is the internet protocol by which you push data from one node to another without the other node's consent? Every one I can think of would generally be called a DoS attack.

There's no such thing as "push" data, it's like trying to push a rope. Any reasonably sized data stream has the consent of both parties on the network.

Re: Double paid traffic

#45
DTAG is the Network Operator for most of German Business and Private Customers. Most DSL-Resellers are Business Customers of DTAG.

So maybe there point of view, beeing more important than any public exchange, is not far fetched as it is most certainly a business reality.

Hetzner making a stand for net neutrality is a joke. They are asking your money for better service.

Re: Double paid traffic

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Hertzner aren't pushing data onto DTAG's network. The ISP's customers are requesting it.

The internet is much more than just HTTP traffic - the purpose isn't to provide access to content so the fact that these are content providers (i.e. data is requested) doesn't matter. I can host my backups via a web server at home and wget them from my remote server, the fact I "requested" that from the remote server means nothing. The ISPs customers are paying for a connection to the ISPs network, nothing more. Ever…

Then the correct solution is to use those peering agreements in between ISP:s to get that money to expand the infrastructure as necessary, and if the ISP:s with customers creating the traffic can't pay then they can chose between stopping the traffic or charging their own clients more.

In no circumstance should an ISP be directly charging the customer of another ISP.

Re: Double paid traffic

#47
post #17

Could we speed the Internet up with more generic caching? I'd theorize that a decent percentage of all Internet traffic to residential ISPs is made up of HTTP requests for highly cacheable resources. However, it seems like the mythical idea of an automatic caching HTTP proxy at the ISP level never really materialized. Perhaps that was possible in the HTTP days, but HTTPS makes it a challenge. How much better would In…

I do think it could be neat with the support for a tag for "this is can be cached" in TLS streams, which could be applied to privacy unsensitive material, which identifies the ciphertext blob and thus lets the ISP tell the server sending it "I'm now going to cache this blob, tell every client on my network to use the same decryption key for this blob for X time and I'll hand them my cached copy".

Presumably you'd have to use a signed hash of the ciphertext as the identifier, and decouple the encryption of these blobs from the rest of the TLS stream (use independent key material) to ensure it remains secure. But this way, any ISP that sees the same blob appearing frequently can chose to cache it automatically and quickly start saving bandwidth.

Also, for maximizing privacy, I think this tag should be applied by the client only (can be disabled if you want to reduce metadata leaks) when the server tells the client "this particular data with identifier X can be auto-cached on the network level". One potential neat advantage here is that a LAN router/proxy could implement a cache for its own nodes by having the nodes send these cache requests directly to this router instead of letting the ISP see it, so you don't leak this metadata outside your own network.

Re: Double paid traffic

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet is much more than just HTTP traffic - the purpose isn't to provide access to content so the fact that these are content providers (i.e. data is requested) doesn't matter. I can host my backups via a web server at home and wget them from my remote server, the fact I "requested" that from the remote server means nothing. The ISPs customers are paying for a connection to the ISPs network, nothing more. Ever…

Then the correct solution is to use those peering agreements in between ISP:s to get that money to expand the infrastructure as necessary, and if the ISP:s with customers creating the traffic can't pay then they can chose between stopping the traffic or charging their own clients more. In no circumstance should an ISP be directly charging the customer of another ISP.

I agree but that's not what's happening here. They are just directly passing on the cost to provide service - the customers are paying Hetzner not the ISP (unless I'm reading wrong - but I did double check).

In this situation, Core-Backbone pays for peering with DTAG and Hetzner pays them to transport their data. I'm not seeing how that is an ISP billing another ISPs customer? Hetzner is paying Core-Backbone, Core-Backbone is paying DTAG. Same as Netflix paying Cogent to transport their data.

Re: Double paid traffic

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the correct solution is to use those peering agreements in between ISP:s to get that money to expand the infrastructure as necessary, and if the ISP:s with customers creating the traffic can't pay then they can chose between stopping the traffic or charging their own clients more. In no circumstance should an ISP be directly charging the customer of another ISP.

I agree but that's not what's happening here. They are just directly passing on the cost to provide service - the customers are paying Hetzner not the ISP (unless I'm reading wrong - but I did double check). In this situation, Core-Backbone pays for peering with DTAG and Hetzner pays them to transport their data. I'm not seeing how that is an ISP billing another ISPs customer? Hetzner is paying Core-Backbone, Core-Ba…

I'm primarily thinking of cases here like consumer ISP:s wanting to charge Netflix directly. This particular case might be quite different from what I had in mind.

Re: Double paid traffic

#50

> They now also want to collect revenue by charging large content providers fees for access to their network Isn't what they are advocating for the exact opposite of net neutrality? Everyone's connection is saturated, but they argue that because they are a large content provider they should get special treatment and not need to pay for direct access. Smaller companies are equally affected during peak hours, but they…

This is not about the size of some content provider, but about not providing the service they bill their customers for. The DSL subscriber pays for an internet connection at n Mbit/s. Note: The DSL subscriber does not pay for a line to their local central office, the product telcos sell to end customers is internet access. Now, these customers who have bought internet access request some data transfer from some server at Hetzner (for example), and Hetzner essentially says "here, we have a few gigabytes of data for your customer, where should we drop them off so you can deliver them?" - and the telco's answer is "we won't, unless you pay us!"

This is not about moving the data to the telco's network, but about the telco delivering the packets to their customers. Cost-neutral peering does not mean free peering, those "content providers" complaining about net neutrality violations do not complain because they have to pay for a line from their datacenter to some location where the DSL telco's network is, so that they can interconnect (they generally are more than willing to pay for that, at least if it's not some location where the respective telco is the only one who could provide the line and would bill unusually high rates for it) - what they are complaining about is that, essentially, even if they were to offer delivering their traffic directly to all the central offices of the telco using their own lines, so the telco only would have to connect them to the DSLs of their customer, those telcos would refuse unless they were paid for it.

And I am not exaggerating: There have been cases where CDNs offered to place cache servers in the telco's network, to pay for the rack space and the power and their servers at normal hosting rates that other hosting customers would pay, so that the traffic originates as close to the subscriber as possible, thus reducing the network costs for wide-area transport by the telco as much as possible, and they refused.

They want to be paid for access to their customers - nobody would complain if they wanted to bill for wide-area transit at normal market rates, or even if they wanted to have the traffic delivered closer to their subscribers, as long as the content provider could choose their transit provider freely, thus buying the transit at market rates. But in practice, they want to be paid unless you installed your own DSL to their customer.

Also very interesting, though german only, unfortunately: http://netzneutral.init7.net/de/situation-init7.php - they report that they tried to get an offer from DTAG for direct peering, and what they got not only didn't match what they requested, but also had progressive pricing: The more capacity they would have wanted to buy, the more they would have had to pay per unit. That is to say: a 10 Gbit interconnect would have been more than 10 times as expensive as a 1 Gbit interconnect. That certainly is not due to costs, hardware for bigger pipes never gets more expensive the more you buy.

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