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Coding is boring, unless

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Re: Coding is boring, unless

#131

Post by babuskov »

bluedino wrote: post #120
ggambetta wrote: post #2

> Because 50% of my code (hyperbole intended!) was a direct copy/paste of Stack Overflow. And another 40% was a copy/paste from other scripts. Either my colleagues’ scripts or my own. It became repetitive. And there was little creativity or learning involved. How is this even possible? I've never had a job where copying and pasting code would have helped. It blows my mind every time I read this kind of claim, to the…

>> Are there people who get paid to do things that simple that they can be copied and pasted from Stack Overflow? Have you been on SO?

SO had a great year 1, and maybe year 2. You know, when real questions were asked.

Now you have beginners asking so simple questions it's both funny and tragic at the same time.

Here's the first question in the list when I opened the site today:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/33989450/mysql-joins-on-t...

Yeah. That guy is one of those who just ask others how to to their job and then copy/paste it.

Who answers such questions? I have no idea. Probably the guys who are just a step above on the knowledge curve. They probably hang around to ask their own questions, and also find such questions challenging enough to bother providing an answer.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#132

Post by thebouv »

nilliams wrote: post #15
S_A_P wrote: post #10

I don't know. I've been writing c# for years and I still go to SO for things. Sometimes it's even stuff I should know, like creating a text file. However I don't do some of these tasks often enough to remember by heart and it's not an exciting problem to figure out so I go for SO. I don't see a problem with that at all. I also don't get the sentiment that you're not a real coder if you use SO and copy paste code. I d…

Way I read it the overuse of SO (along with C&P programming) thing was just one example/potential symptom -- he wasn't making a broad generalisation that all SO usage is bad.

I tell employers and employees and co-workers: I'm a good programmer, I'm a phenomenal Googler. I don't have to memorize the best sorting algorithms or how to create a text file in every language I touch. I know how to problem solve, choose the correct tools and search for guidance (note: that doesn't mean straight c&p always but could if it is appropriate) on things that get sticky.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#133

Post by babuskov »

ryandrake wrote: post #33
sohcahtoa wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two ways to view what the job most programmers do is. IMO it isn't to write code, it's to solve business problems. Code just happens to be the tool that you use to do that, most of the time. Anyone who tries to solve a problem by staring hard at a blank piece of paper instead of just googling the answer is not making effective use of their time.

Exactly, and most business problems are not all that unique. User input from form X goes to storage Y, output in report Z. There, I bet I've described, in a very high level summary, at least 50% of programming projects out there in one sentence. SO is a valuable resource because all these wheels need to get re-invented over and over everywhere. Unless you're lucky enough to be working on an inventive project at an in…

100% of programming projects involve transforming inputs into outputs ;)

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#134

Post by babuskov »

gotchange wrote: post #34
TeMPOraL wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most companies don't solve non-trivial problems. For instance, 90% of web development is regurgitating the same CRUD for different customers. Most of the work consists of wiring standard components together in a standard way, and slapping some CSS on top of it. If you're trying to think too much and reinvent too much, you'll waste a lot of time. Source: did too much webdev in my life already, and wasted way too much…

> For instance, 90% of web development is regurgitating the same CRUD for different customers. Maybe on the face of it, it looks like this to you but in reality it's bit complicated esp if you're aiming for more differentiation from your competition but if you're looking for just cookie-cutter, run-of-the-mill, copycat solutions, then all the products on the market definitely look the same.

You are both right. 90% of the websites on the Internet do look the same. You only have 10% (probably even less) products that are special and noteworthy.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#135

Post by chemicaloliver »

wpietri wrote: post #94

This is missing my biggest trick: one of my biggest ways of fighting boredom with code is focusing on meaning . E.g., if I'm building a system to serve particular people, I meet them, I visit their offices, I watch them work. I also like watching user tests and taking support calls. Even when some particular block of code isn't technically fancy, I'm not bored by it as long as it's of use to people. Of course, once y…

Yes, so much this... I like new fancy stuff as much as the next guy but I'd describe my motivations as 'solving other peoples problems with technology'. That can be done just as easily in a legacy codebase as in a greenfield project.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#136

Post by chemicaloliver »

wpietri wrote: post #94

This is missing my biggest trick: one of my biggest ways of fighting boredom with code is focusing on meaning . E.g., if I'm building a system to serve particular people, I meet them, I visit their offices, I watch them work. I also like watching user tests and taking support calls. Even when some particular block of code isn't technically fancy, I'm not bored by it as long as it's of use to people. Of course, once y…

Yes, so much this... I like new fancy stuff as much as the next guy but I'd describe my motivations as 'solving other peoples problems with technology'. That can be done just as easily in a legacy codebase as in a greenfield project.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#137

Post by patrickdavey »

supercoder wrote: post #126
mannykannot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am bemused simply by the author's idea that rewrites are interesting. It is probably a good sign if a developer is irritated by cruft in existing code, but to feel compelled to redo the whole thing 'properly' strikes me as borderline OCD (full disclosure: it happens to me occasionally, but I quickly get over it.)

I usually find it's a sign of a developer who's too lazy to understand the current code, but arrogant enough to think they can make it better by starting again.

Yip, you can't really do a re-write unless you've gone to the bother of understanding what is there in the first place (and wrapping tests around it, if at all possible).

And if you're going to the trouble to understand it and wrap tests around it, then maybe refactoring the existing codebase is a smarter choice. If less sexy.

I think a good mindset to have is to look for the challenge in making decent refactorings.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#138

Post by [deleted] »

dannypgh wrote: post #92

I don't understand how good programmers can have boring work. Any work you have that's not interesting is work that should have be done by a computer for you. If your computer can't trivially obtain and solve the work, the interesting work clearly isn't done. Just using tools or applying well-known solutions to known problems is boring, sure. But that's operational work. I believe our job is to eliminate operational…

[deleted]

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#139

Post by dannypgh »

dannypgh wrote: post #92

I don't understand how good programmers can have boring work. Any work you have that's not interesting is work that should have be done by a computer for you. If your computer can't trivially obtain and solve the work, the interesting work clearly isn't done. Just using tools or applying well-known solutions to known problems is boring, sure. But that's operational work. I believe our job is to eliminate operational…

Let me walk back that a bit - there's an exception. A good programmer can have boring work if their managers forbid them from building the tools necessary to reasonably do their job. I had a job once that did exactly that; they were happier with the status quo because with the setup they had they needed N hours of programmer time for every customer-feature launch pair. When I showed them how we could reduce it to approximately N hours of work to add the feature to every customer's instance, I was told no, because as it those N hours spent on each client's site were billable hours to the client. In other words, that I was reducing the total work needed by a factor of the number of customers to provide the same value was seen as detrimental to the business.

Their business model was broken to the point where it favored operational work over engineering work. Hours spent working were more important than results delivered. I was only at that job for a couple of weeks; pretty much exactly when they told me that they didn't want me to reduce my total workload because of their billing structure was when I decided that I'd be leaving. And I have zero regrets.

So, allow me to rephrase: I don't understand how good programmers, given the autonomy they ought to have, can have boring work.

Re: Coding is boring, unless

#140

Post by mannykannot »

scotty79 wrote: post #110
mannykannot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am bemused simply by the author's idea that rewrites are interesting. It is probably a good sign if a developer is irritated by cruft in existing code, but to feel compelled to redo the whole thing 'properly' strikes me as borderline OCD (full disclosure: it happens to me occasionally, but I quickly get over it.)

> it happens to me occasionally, but I quickly get over it By realizing that you'll make even bigger of a mess the next time around?

That is probably the rational assumption for me to make, but I'm not that much more self-effacing than the average programmer. What usually does the job is contemplating the amount of work it would take to divine the current implementation's requirements[1] and the amount of testing that it would take to show that I had correctly implemented them. That is when I realize I can live with the existing implementation and that I have other things I would rather be doing.

[1] If it were self-documenting, or even just documented, I would probably not be thinking of fixing it.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

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