> Hands up who knows which company designed the iPhone 6s’ 64-bit chip Apple did. It's been widely acknowledged that the processor inside the iPhone is a custom design which implements the ARMv8 ISA. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A9 > Furber and his co-designer, Sophie Wilson, had found research from the Berkeley campus of the University of California into a new type of processor: one that simplified the s…
How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
61–70 of 92 posts
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
The market noticed. Nice steady increase. Symbol: ARMH https://www.google.com/finance?cid=662445
ARMH is only now back to their 2000 internet bubble highs.
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#63Another related British company which has become very successful without anyone noticing is Imagination Technologies (formerly Videologic). They had a successful graphics card business during the 90s but with the introduction of 3D graphics accelerators their product (PowerVR) whilst semi-successful began to struggle against 3dfx and nVidia's TNT and Geforce range of graphics cards. Eventually they pulled out of the…
I wouldn't call Imagination Technologies a successful company their IP is being shipped in billion of SOC's but they yearly revenue is below 200M and they operate at break even or a loss. IT seems to be a case study of a company which it's IP is a corner stone in many consumer devices but some how never managed to capitalize on it. ARM is a very good example of how to spin off your IP and make it successful even when…
I would consider any company who's tech ships in a billion devices successful, regardless of if they have managed to capitalize on it.
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#64With Intel skipping a 'tick' and fabs like Samsung and TSMC catching up in process, ARM-based CPUs are competitive in performance with the low end of Intel's desktop lines up to Core i5 - and use less power. There seems to be a window for ARM to make inroads into servers, in addition to low-end laptops like Chromebooks. The trend of mobile devices replacing desktops for more and more tasks (> 50% of emails read on mo…
ARM CPU's aren't really comparable to anything above the Intel's ATOM line in terms of benchmark performance, and raw real world applications still give x86 based CPU's a huge advantage. http://www.computingcompendium.com/p/arm-vs-intel-benchmarks... http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_te... Allot of the "performance" of most of these SOC's actually comes from the GPU/DSP portion of the SOC rath…
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
ARM CPU's aren't really comparable to anything above the Intel's ATOM line in terms of benchmark performance, and raw real world applications still give x86 based CPU's a huge advantage. http://www.computingcompendium.com/p/arm-vs-intel-benchmarks... http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_te... Allot of the "performance" of most of these SOC's actually comes from the GPU/DSP portion of the SOC rath…
Then how come nobody in the Android ecosystem is able to build a successful device with Intel? Even after Qualcomm had a very bad ARM chip for the last 2 years and Apple is beating their pants off nobody, from Sony to LG to Samsung, is willing to go with Intel.
Nothing inherent to the power/performance of the cpu itself. It's just that arm can and does get extra power saving features tacked on as required.
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well the Xeon-D 1540 sits just below the E5 in most benchmarks, unfortunately I can't conjure benchmarks out of think air, but you don't seem to be able to do so either (but for all accounts Cavium isn't shipping anything yet, all i could find are press releases that some one said they'll be building servers based on their SOC bot nothing else). I wasn't comparing anything, anantech was they compared an available Int…
Delusional?? 12 billion ARM processors were sold in 2014. Intel sold 400 million. I wouldn't bet against those volumes if ARM partners become serious about the server market. It's quite clear that 64 bit ARM processors are good enough to use for some servers, with some very high end offerings coming along soon as I've posted about in other comments. Disruptive innovations happen from below. Sources: https://atlas.qz.…
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#67> Hands up who knows which company designed the iPhone 6s’ 64-bit chip Apple did. It's been widely acknowledged that the processor inside the iPhone is a custom design which implements the ARMv8 ISA. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A9 > Furber and his co-designer, Sophie Wilson, had found research from the Berkeley campus of the University of California into a new type of processor: one that simplified the s…
Citation needed. Different from Anand's mentioning of "custom designed implementation of ARM ISA" on his webpage without any proof and further copied and taken to Wikipedia. One non-verified source cannot be trusted, sorry. Of course the chip is a custom design ( as it mentioned @ Wikipedia ), because ARM generally do not provide the peripherals and you can "bolt" whatever you like. Apple may be a big company, but they definitely lack the skill set to do such large chips themselves. The wild rumor goes to their attempt to ditch BRCM for wifi's chips for ages, something that would have happened if they had the resources to design something themselves. Not to mention the huge chunk of chip on the new macbook 12", rumored to be from the acquisition of Anobit, which if you have some knowledge of design is at least 4 generations behind. That of course is a speculation, much like Anand's quote of "custom ISA implementation" from A8 and onward, but at least the nm process can be seen to be quite old.
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
those blog benchmarks are 2013 and 2014. current benchmarks linked in the blog post show ARM competitive with Core i5 (single-core) although not i7. http://arstechnica.com/apple/2015/11/ipad-pro-review-mac-lik... blog post also links to published reports saying Intel has 1,000 people working on a SOC for iPhone. http://venturebeat.com/2015/10/16/intel-has-1000-people-work...
ARS isn't loading for me, yes the a9x is a monster chip especially as far graphics and synthetic benchmarks goes, try real world applications (quite hard to near impossible on Apple devices due to the closed ecosystem) including web server performance, video compression throttling and many more aspects and you'll see that's not the case. It's very competitive with Core-M devices for sure but sorry not sold out on it…
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#69For decades the combined power of Intel's volume and Window's ubiquity kept a huge amount of resources dedicated to that platform. SPARC, M68K, NS32, VAX, PA-RISC, even Itanium were crushed under the unrelenting focus by third parties on building tools, software, and systems around x86 and later AMD64 architecture chips.
What is fascinating is that Intel got into that position by being open, there were no fewer than 12 licensees for its 8086 design, and people had supplanted "expensive, proprietary lock-in" type architectures with more open and cheaper chips. It was the emergence of the PC market, and the great Chip Recession of 1984, where Intel decided if it was going to stay a chip maker, it had to be the best source of its dominant computer chips. I was at Intel at the time and it shifted from partnering, to competing, with the same people who had licensed its chips, with the intent of "reclaiming" the market for CPU chips for itself.
You have to realize that at the time the bottom had fallen out of the market, and things like EPROMs and DRAM (both of which Intel made) were being sold on the grey market at below market costs as stocks from bankrupt computer companies made it into the wild. Further competitors like Ok Semiconductor were making better versions of the same chips (lower power, faster clock rates). Intel still had a manufacturing advantage but it could not survive if it couldn't make the margins on its chips hold. It dumped all of its unproductive lines, wrapped patents and licenses around all of its core chips, and then embarked on a long term strategy to kill anyone who wouldn't buy their chips from Intel at the prices that Intel demanded.
We can see they were remarkably successful at that, and a series of CEOs have presided over a manufacturing powerhouse that was funded by an unassailable capture of not only software developers but system OEMs as well. They fended off a number of anti-trust lawsuits, and delicately wove their way between former partners like Compaq who were now laying on the ground, mortally wounded.
ARM was playing in the embedded space, dominated by the 8051 (an Intel chip) where Intel played the licensing card (just like ARM) licensing its architecture to others who would make their own versions of the chips. As a licensing play they insured their partners would never move "up market" into the desktop space and threaten the cash cow that was x86.
The relentless pace of putting more transistors into less space drove an interesting problem for ARM. When you get a process shrink you can do one of two things, you can cut your costs (more die per wafer), or you can keep your costs about the same and increase features (more transistors per die). And the truth is you always did a bit of both. But the challenge with chips is their macro scale parts (the pin pads for example) really couldn't shrink. So you became "pad limited". The ratio of the area dedicated to the pads (which you connected external wires too) and the transistors could not drop below the point where most of your wafer was "pad". If it did so then you're costs flipped and your expensive manufacturing process was producing wafers of mostly pads so not utilizing its capabilities. At the Microprocessor Forum in 2001 the keynote suggested that spending anything more than 10% of your silicon budget on pads was too much. 90+% of your die had to be functional logic or the shrink just didn't make sense.
The effect of that was that chips ARM designed really had to do more stuff or they were not going to be cost effective on any silicon process with small feature sizes. And the simplest choice is to add more "big processor" features or additional peripherals.
So we had an explosion of "system on chip" products with all sorts of peripherals that continues to this day. And the process feature size keeps getting smaller, and the stuff added keeps growing. The ARM core was so small it could accommodate more peripherals on the same die, that made it cost effective and that made it a good choice for phones which needed long battery life but low cost. The age of phones put everything except the radios on chips (radios being like modems, different for every country, were not cost effective to add to the chip until software defined radio (SDR) became a thing. And the success as a phone platform pushed the need for tools, and the need for tools got more of the computer ecosystem focussed on building things for the ARM instruction set.
At that point step two became inevitable. Phones got better and better and more computer like, they need more and more of the things that "desktop" type computers need. You have a supplier (ARM) which is not trying to protect an entrenched business basically doing all it can to widen its markets. And a company like Apple, who wasn't trying to protect its desktop/laptop market share pushing the architecture as far as it can. More tools, more focus, more investment from others to support it, and like a fire that starts as a glowing ember near a convenient source of tinder, the blaze grows until the effects of the fire are creating its own wind and allowing it to grow bigger and stronger. Even after Intel woke up to the fact that the forest around their x86 architecture was on fire, I don't think they had enough time to put it out.
So here we are with ARM chips which are comparable in software support and feature set of Intel's low end desktop CPUs. But without the Intel "tax" which is the extra margin Intel could demand being the only player, and immune to Intel's ability to attack by patents or license shenanigans. Intel is in full on defense, paying tablet vendors like Lenovo to use their chips in ARM tablets, supporting the cost of building out their own IoT infrastructure with Galileo, and doing all they can to keep ARM out of their castle, the data center. Like DEC and its VAX line, or Sun and its SPARC line, they are doomed.
Looking at the performance of the iPad pro it is pretty clear you can build a chromebook or a laptop that would meet the needs of the mass market with an ARM architecture machine. And because ARM licensees can add features anywhere in the architecture including places like the frontside bus[1] which is tightly controlled space in x86 land, you will be able to provide features faster than x86 OEMs can convince Intel they need them. And that will change things in a pretty profound (and I think positive) way. Not the least of which might be having the opportunity to buy a lap top that isn't pre-backdoored by the chip manufacturer with its SMM.
[1] Literally if you buy a bus analyzer (a sophisticated logic analyzer) from Agilent or Tektronix and hook it to the Intel frontside bus, it won't display the signals until you enter the NDA # you got from Intel! That is pretty tightly controlled.
Re: How ARM got so successful without the public really noticing
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Delusional?? 12 billion ARM processors were sold in 2014. Intel sold 400 million. I wouldn't bet against those volumes if ARM partners become serious about the server market. It's quite clear that 64 bit ARM processors are good enough to use for some servers, with some very high end offerings coming along soon as I've posted about in other comments. Disruptive innovations happen from below. Sources: https://atlas.qz.…
That cavium looks extremely interesting. Any idea on how I could get my hands on one?
[1] https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/48-core-arm-64-bit-ser...