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English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

antirez.com

241–249 of 249 posts

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mere exposure does not make you learn/enjoy a language Then how do babies ever learn to speak? The most fluent speakers of foreign languages are almost always immigrants, because exposure is the key to learning to speak.

> Then how do babies ever learn to speak? How exactly that works is still a hotly debated topic, but there is a clear difference between mere exposure to TV versus interacting linguistically in an environment. > The most fluent speakers of foreign languages are almost always immigrants, because exposure is the key to learning to speak. In my experience it's hit and miss. Some people simply have a knack for it (or int…

> there is a clear difference between mere exposure to TV versus interacting linguistically in an environment.

Right. It wasn't clear to me that you meant that by "mere exposure", I was assuming both of those things as "exposure" versus actively being taught a language in school, and spending effort to practice.

Still, I think I learned more English from subtitles than I did in school.

I remember when I was about 10, I had learned a tiny bit of English in school, really nothing to speak of (it can't have been more than half a year). And a lot more from TV and subtitles. At some point my parents had some English-speaking friends over, whose kids were exactly my age. I could (partially) understand what they were saying, but I was a bit scared to talk back in English, because while I knew some English, I had never spoken it "for real" :)

So yes, interacting linguistically is important. But it felt to me more like "unlocking" the ability to converse in that language, after already knowing most of it by being exposed to it, daily, for most of my life.

I don't actually remember learning anything really new about English in school until years later in high school (some words I hadn't seen before, or used in a particular manner). Everything I already had seen on TV, it was more like remembering.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#242
post #16

Ever noticed how people from small countries in Europe often tend to speak English well, while people from big European countries dont? Think Sweden vs Italy. Its mostly just a happy accident. You see, in small countries they usually dont dub movies or tv shows, simply because the market isn't big enough. They simply put subtitles on. Subtitles fly past way too quick for young kids to read though. So young kids dont…

From Italy here, can confirm. It is more than accent tho: has something to do by not being exposed to the full spectrum of sound the humans can produce. We Italians can't say the th right, because we cannot even _listen_ it right. We can't just process the sound, yet alone reproduce it. Then we get on internet and we learn written English, but since the rules are inconsistent we mostly are left to make wild guesses a…

> but what gets me is you have people that speak like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nj5MMURCm8 and tell foreigners they are not understandable

hah, IMO that's because they mixed the music way too loud in that clip :)

I can make out most of it, but definitely not the very first bit. I guess if it had been Dutch, I'd also have trouble understanding everything--though perhaps a bit less because like you imply, I'm better trained at separating "Dutch sounds" from background noise.

This is the reason why I really prefer to watch English TV or movies with (English) subtitles. It's one thing to understand what they say, it's another thing to be able to make it out in the first place.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#243
post #54
post #34

I think this fact (and he's obviously not wrong, though I don't know if I'd label it a secret - everyone knows this about English, I thought?) is inevitable from any language which gains the reach English did, or at least, gained the reach English did at the time English did... whether it would be different now we have global communication all the time remains to be seen I suppose. How do you have a language spoken b…

Does french suffer from the same issues? It has been spread pretty widely too and with long history.

French has a central body that regulates (dictates) what is 'French'. English doesn't. Descriptivism vs prescriptivism.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could be Harry Callahan, Darth Wader, Captain Kirk, Terminator, 007, Blad Runner's Roy Batty and The king lion's Mufasa, all in one lifetime, you might look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantino_Romero Talking about interesting lives...

(I wrote "blad" runner?, ouch)

You also wrote Darth 'Wader' (clothes for walking in rivers, or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSJFrhb-HM).

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#245
I have been using full time English for a 23 years now.

I think the biggest struggle for me is it's hard to tell what's right from wrong. While I completely understand that I'm not anywhere perfect in grammar, things that Ginger won't catch is the ones I have often had problems with, perhaps the sort of thing that makes my composition very obvious that it is written by a non-native. (Probably people can even tell that by reading this comment...)

While I never had so much of problem in operation side, it is a bit frustrating for me when I am forced to work with public relations matters (I work for a very small company) considering I know that I am way under-qualified.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I wrote "blad" runner?, ouch)

You also wrote Darth 'Wader' (clothes for walking in rivers, or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSJFrhb-HM ).

Damned ánaquin escaigüalquer XDDD

One good example of the troubles with english. Is a tiresome encode, decode, encode... all the time. And this is only popular culture. A much worst problem has been created when english weird rules overpower universal languages, like taxonomy.

Lets take the maple genus for example: "Acer", named by a swedois from the latin "aciale". Should be pronounced as Linné intended /'azer/ but is changed to /ˈeɪsər/ instead, because english. This mean that a language created to be universal, is not universal anymore. Is tainted. For most people in the world there is not a clear rule to link "azer" with "eisa". Is broken unless you hear it and memorize it. Linné would not understand currently most of is own named genera.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#247
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in Sicily there are different dialects of the same mother language, is that right?

Languages/dialects in Italy are complicated! http://vgsitaliansig.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Language... Many of them basically evolved from latin on their own, rather than from some kind of standard Italian. Standardization has come later, with TV/radio/travel spreading 'standard' Italian. For fun, here's "Where did the guy go?" in Italian, followed by some sort of Venetian: "Dov'e` andato il ragazzo?" "Dove xeo…

To see how Sicilian is far away, and considered a separated idiom, the Sicilian translation is illuminating:

"Dov'e` andato il ragazzo" -> "Unna sinni ji' lu carusu?"

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#248
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English, Swedish, Finnish, Japanese, and German Just curious, in what order did you learn them? That's a pretty diverse set.

Based on the language list metafunctor is Finnish, so the only language standing out is Japanese. Finnish and Swedish are first and second languages (or vice versa). English and German are typical third and fourth school languages and Japanese is most likely something picked up in college. Metafunctor: how did I do? :)

Spot on – looks like you're intimately familiar with the Finnish school system yourself. Are you Finnish?

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years (2013)

#249
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English does not have a simple set of rules for pronunciation or dictation. Spelling bees don't exist for most languages, but it's a thing for English. So yes, I'd say English is “phonetically broken”, if that means it's difficult to figure out how to convert from spoken words to text and vice versa. I am not a linguist, but I speak English, Swedish, Finnish, Japanese, and German. English does seem to be an unusually…

> English, Swedish, Finnish, Japanese, and German Just curious, in what order did you learn them? That's a pretty diverse set.

Finnish (mother tongue), English (almost pass of as a native speaker), Swedish (get by), German (basics), Japanese (basics). The last two I'm rapidly forgetting, though.
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