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The Yale Problem Begins in High School

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Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#331

Post by sliverstorm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #91
sliverstorm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a master enough of this subject to form a detailed argument, but I hope we can agree there is a line somewhere between civil criticism and a lynching. Especially, IMO, in the case of a ballot issue. Are we trying to coerce people to vote the way we want them to? That's unconscionable to me.

> I'm not a master enough of this subject to form a detailed argument, but I hope we can agree there is a line somewhere between civil criticism and a lynching. Yes, there is, and what Eich experienced was not only not a lynching [0], it was quite far from the line that separates criticism from lynching. [0] in case there is a lack of clarity, this is a lynching: http://abhmuseum.org/2012/01/an-iconic-lynching-in-the…

it was quite far from the line that separates criticism from lynching.

Where do you believe that line is? He certainly experienced mob justice in some form.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#332

Post by XaspR8d »

asift wrote: post #248
redthrowaway wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "vanguardist" is a better term than "elitist". "Elitist" connotes a passive enjoyment of privilege, whereas these people see themselves much more as the enlightened few bringing the orthodox[1] to the unwashed masses by any means necessary. They share far more in common with Communists who viewed it as their duty to shepherd the proletariat towards social consciousness than with the Oxbridge set who merely ta…

>"Elitist" connotes a passive enjoyment of privilege Any student on an Ivy League campus is among the most privileged human beings in the world (regardless of where they came from).

True, but this discussion is being used as a lens for the greater social justice movement, where it would be hard to make the same generality (especially when their uniting quality is that they denounce privilege).

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#333

Post by ps4fanboy »

flopto wrote: post #251
dragonwriter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor whites and poor blacks are both subject to mass incarceration; though poor blacks are incarcerated at even higher rates. This is clearly among the factors that, on average, favors poor whites over poor blacks. I certainly did not deny the existence of such factors (I even enumerated some of them.)

> Poor whites and poor blacks are both subject to mass incarceration; though poor blacks are incarcerated at even higher rates. Yes, good to point that out. My argument (implicitly) was that this is a really huge factor which gives poor whites a "net advantage."

An aggregate advantage maybe, however the individual who decides to not put themselves in the position to be incarcerated is confused why you are calling them privileged.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#334

Post by ploxiln »

Jtsummers wrote: post #280
1812Overture wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a history class that can't make a strong argument that the holocaust wasn't a hoax and a law class that can't make the argument that rape victims exist are in VERY serious trouble. Being able to debunk such looney claims is very valuable for students so they should develop these skills not be shielded from exposure to them.

In general I agree with you, but having dealt with (less severe) examples of this with some coworkers, it's really, really annoying. When someone simply states their (contrary or contrarian) viewpoint and refuses to admit any evidence presented is valid, you can't win. It's an exercise in futility. I had a guy simply insisting that evolution wasn't real. "Ok", I say, "what about (found some reports demonstrating obse…

You're not going to convince everyone to agree with you, or even just with what you think is most important. That's ok. You can agree to disagree. Especially if this is an acquaintance at a party, or a coworker, and the topic is not at all related to what you're doing.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#335

Post by eli_gottlieb »

nemo1618 wrote: post #173
soylentcola wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing joke and I've run across similar ones (South Park, for one, had two old guys grumbling about how long it took "PC" to run its course last time) but on a more serious note, I wonder how much of it is just the nature of young, relatively wealthy/privileged people to want to "change the world" and find a cause. I'm a bit past college age these days but in the mid/late 90's when I was at university, there were pl…

The biggest failure of such people is that their own conduct serves as a terrible advertisement for the sort of worldview they promote. Look at these people: do you see happy, healthy, mindful, compassionate, self-confident, well-adjusted human beings? I don't. I see bitter, spiteful, demanding, insecure, Us-vs-Them types, perpetually searching for the next perceived slight. Are these the sort of people I'm supposed…

>Look at these people: do you see happy, healthy, mindful, compassionate, self-confident, well-adjusted human beings? I don't. I see bitter, spiteful, demanding, insecure, Us-vs-Them types, perpetually searching for the next perceived slight.

And do you think that's a random sampling of everyone who believes in similar causes? From where I sit, "the butthurt minority" are such a self-selecting group, and their rage is so completely independent of their actual cause, that they don't constitute evidence for or against any particular idea, cause, or proposition.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#336

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

Retric wrote: post #120
thomnottom wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a full beard, a father who wears a full beard, and several friends with full beards, what is the problem with them?

For one thing it lowers the bar before people think your indigent. Depending on industry it can often make it harder to find a job. On the whole it's generally viewed as a low status symbol. Granted this is mostly from the east coast of the US (DC). And having a styled bearded seems to make a large difference.

> For one thing it lowers the bar before people think your indigent.

Have you considered keeping your facial hair washed and groomed.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#337

Post by noxToken »

marknutter wrote: post #287
noxToken wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What I can't stand are these "Women in technology" conferences and workshops to "close the (gender) gap". Why? Because if you focus on one group, then you are actively not focusing on another. That's the problem though. Sometimes you need to give special attention to a group to ensure that their abilities and accomplishments are seen. You may not personally have this problem, but there are members of the "old guard"…

> That's the problem though. Sometimes you need to give special attention to a group to ensure that their abilities and accomplishments are seen But this would imply that they actually possess these abilities and are accomplishing things with them. The problem isn't that we have droves of women programmers who are being systematically overlooked by potential employers - it's that there simply aren't very many women e…

This was what my closing statement was about: sometimes these initiatives have good intentions but miss the mark.

I personally feel like the lack of women due to the culture is more of an engineering thing than a CS thing. I could be wrong, of course, but my experience compared to peers in engineering agrees with your sentiment. Regardless, I think the initiative exists to ensure that the same exclusionary culture doesn't propagate in an already male-dominated field. This may not be the correct execution, but I at least applaud the efforts to make women feel welcomed.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#338

Post by gaius »

MollyR wrote: post #283
gaius wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

Wow thank you for this link. Its interesting to see where these horrible tactics come from. It certainly frightening to see things like rule 13 “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. This is horrifying to see codified, and what I assume being practiced o…

Yep once you know "the rules" you can easily analyze all these protests or incidents.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#339

Post by jimbokun »

nickbauman wrote: post #127
jseliger wrote: post #12

I've taught at two colleges and based on my (purely) anecdotal experiences and attention to the climate, I'd say that the number of students and faculty interested in stifling or censoring ideas is small but also very, very noisy. They also have no sense of humor and college administrators as a group have no sense of humor or perspective, and they're chronically worried about accusations of indifference or insensitiv…

The problem with "balancing viewpoints" argument is that it isn't based on a critical ethos and so it cannot progress on the basis of logos. You can have a "balanced viewpoint" and still have debates about "whether the moon is made of the body of Vince Foster or not." There are certain ideas that just don't belong in a university setting because they are bunk and this has nothing to do with diversity of opinion. It s…

"There are certain ideas that just don't belong in a university setting because they are bunk and this has nothing to do with diversity of opinion."

I'm sure all of the students getting faculty and administrators dismissed right now would describe the opposing ideas as "bunk" not worthy of consideration.

I see a few reasons to explicitly address "bunk" ideas.

* Students have already been exposed to the ideas, and many already believe them. Having a discussion explaining why they are bunk might be critical to moving on to more interesting topics.

* Appeals to authority make for bad pedagogy. Sure, evolution is the scientific consensus. But students who just accept it at face value without asking to be shown the evidence are not students capable of scientific thought.

* Ideas you thought were bunk might turn out to have more merit or nuance than you expected, once you start digging deeper. It's easy to see other people's deeply held bunk ideas. But how do you force yourself to see your own?

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#340

Post by nostromo »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #323
nostromo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in a classroom setting, the students should feel free to debate the composition of the moon. Very quickly, the proposal that the moon is made of Vince Foster would be dismissed as false. This is critical thinking in action. The problem today is that students and faculty are self-censoring. This doesn't expand erudition.

> But in a classroom setting, the students should feel free to debate the composition of the moon. No, they shouldn't, and I'll follow-up as to why below. >Very quickly, the proposal that the moon is made of Vince Foster would be dismissed as false. This is critical thinking in action. Given sufficient rhetorical skill and sufficiently many appeals to "open thought" or "questioning assumptions" or "viewpoint diversit…

Who gets to decide which ideas are off limits?
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