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The Yale Problem Begins in High School

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Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#251

Post by flopto »

dragonwriter wrote: post #223
flopto wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor blacks, unlike poor whites, are subject to mass incarceration. Edit: this is technically incorrect, see dragonwriter below.

Poor whites and poor blacks are both subject to mass incarceration; though poor blacks are incarcerated at even higher rates. This is clearly among the factors that, on average, favors poor whites over poor blacks. I certainly did not deny the existence of such factors (I even enumerated some of them.)

> Poor whites and poor blacks are both subject to mass incarceration; though poor blacks are incarcerated at even higher rates.

Yes, good to point that out.

My argument (implicitly) was that this is a really huge factor which gives poor whites a "net advantage."

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#252

Post by troisx »

flopto wrote: post #213
econnors wrote: post #111

As a student at Dartmouth, I find this article to be extremely accurate and representative of the culture I've encountered amongst the protests here and (through conversations with friends) at other places across the country. As a white male, my friends and I are too intimidated by the Black Lives Matter protesters and their actions to try to initiate any sort of discussion on the matter in fear that we'll only provo…

If people are angry about X and you go up to them and try to tell them how much you like/support X, isn't that what you'd expect? To make people want to engage you in a thoughtful discussion, it's important to demonstrate humility and open-mindedness to their opinions.

I'd say that the BLM people have almost no humility or open-mindedness.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#253

Post by [deleted] »

twelfthnight wrote: post #164
nickbauman wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "balancing viewpoints" argument is that it isn't based on a critical ethos and so it cannot progress on the basis of logos. You can have a "balanced viewpoint" and still have debates about "whether the moon is made of the body of Vince Foster or not." There are certain ideas that just don't belong in a university setting because they are bunk and this has nothing to do with diversity of opinion. It s…

Agreed. It strikes me that "balanced viewpoints" are actually antithetical to the anti-fragile philosophy Haidt promotes. We need to be malleable in our viewpoints so that we are both free to express them and should be expected to change them when we encounter evidence against them. A "balanced viewpoint" means keeping viewpoints safe from the world (a "fragile" viewpoint!). It's also worth noting that humans respond…

[deleted]

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#254

Post by lern_too_spel »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #243
lern_too_spel wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exactly like hamburgers. At the top, there are actions that are hard to distinguish morally, just as there are hamburgers that are hard to distinguish quality-wise. But we can all agree that a hamburger with actual shit in it is worse than a hamburger from Smashburger, just as there are certain actions that are clearly morally wrong and don't need to be evaluated with some false fairness.

> But we can all agree that a hamburger with actual shit in it is worse than a hamburger from Smashburger I'm sure that out of the 7 billion people living on our planet, at least one person genuinely likes the taste of shit. To them, this wouldn't necessarily be true (I've never had a Smashburger and I don't like the taste of shit, so I couldn't possibly make this comparison myself). Which is why it's not objectively…

Eating a burger with shit in it will likely kill you. Should I have said cyanide instead to get the point across? The point is that there are some burgers that are clearly worse than others (use your own imagination if cyanide doesn't work for you), just as there are certain actions that are clearly morally worse than others.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#255

Post by [deleted] »

rthomas6 wrote: post #128
kelukelugames wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ideas do they want to censor? Edit: I'm looking for specific examples. Otherwise we are just feigning outrage. I had an ex co-worker who confided in me that he doesn't like gay people. I was very happy that he couldn't say that in public.

Here are some. Note that I do not necessarily believe these ideas, just that they are considered taboo to the point that they cannot be tolerated or seriously discussed in certain circles. * The USA is a moral country. * The USA is morally superior to most/all other countries. * A specific member of an in-power "preferred" group can experience unjustified prejudice, oppression, and bullying from members of an out-of-…

[deleted]

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#256

Post by [deleted] »

nerfhammer wrote: post #245
genericresponse wrote: post #162

Just for everyone's awareness, there is a broad astroturf and professional political push that has been happening for over a year by FIRE, a right leaning think tank. This is a concerted effort to bring controversy around campus free speech into the news. My perception is that this is an effort to weaken student's ability to speak freely, but is coded as a "free speech" issue. Similar to how many churches coded marri…

I don't think Jonathan Haidt is an astroturfer.

[deleted]

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#257

Post by 1812Overture »

RodericDay wrote: post #242
ploxiln wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Some stuff is really clearly not true, and we shouldn't need to work to make space and provide representation for it in schools and such. But how do we avoid the problem where if I suggest that maybe the moon isn't all Vince Foster all the time, I'm an evil person? (a racist, and oppressor of women?) Can we get to a place, not where we agree that the moon could be made of Vince Foster, but where one can sugge…

How do you think a history class should handle a student who wants to discuss Holocaust as a hoax? How about a law student who thinks rape is a victim-less crime? My answer used to be "why, if you have the truth on your side, just prove 'em wrong and move on! so much the better for your standpoint!". However, it can get extremely tedious. A stubborn student can "plausible deniability" his way into extremely metaphysi…

I think a history class that can't make a strong argument that the holocaust wasn't a hoax and a law class that can't make the argument that rape victims exist are in VERY serious trouble.

Being able to debunk such looney claims is very valuable for students so they should develop these skills not be shielded from exposure to them.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#258

Post by ps4fanboy »

derptron wrote: post #56
richard_mcp wrote: post #45

I was originally going to lump this article in with other "men's rights movement" stuff until I saw the author was Jonathan Haidt. I had the honor to take Psyc 101 with Prof. Haidt years ago at the University of Virginia. He was a wonderful teacher who expected the best out of his students. He struck me as a very intelligent man who had put a lot of thought into both what he taught as well as his opinions. When he br…

"I was originally going to lump this article in with other "men's rights movement" stuff" What?

That is the text version of finger snapping.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#259

Post by coreyp_1 »

astroalex wrote: post #230
coreyp_1 wrote: post #137

This directly relates to us in tech. Specifically, there is a huge push to reach out to women and girls in CS. I am not opposed to females in CS at all. I will encourage males and females alike to pursue it, because I see CS as the great equalizer; the only thing that matters is what you produce. What I can't stand are these "Women in technology" conferences and workshops to "close the (gender) gap". Why? Because if…

I might agree that "CS is the great equalizer" if everyone is given an equal opportunity to pursue it. But I don't think they are. Boys are given the focus by default: just watch any Hollywood movie with a "hacker" -- are they a man or a woman? I believe girls are taught from a young age that CS isn't for them. How many potentially brilliant female computer scientists are we missing out on as a society because our me…

What movies/tv shows are you watching? Try Supernatural. Try the old movies from the 90's like Hackers and The Net. Even the Matrix. All of them featured women hackers as well as men.

I was not given "the focus" by default. My Jr. High and High School did not have a CS program at all. I taught myself how to program (Pascal and Assembly) by READING BOOKS, because we lived in a rural area and dial-up internet is slow!

Is it so wrong to believe that if I can do it, so can others, regardless of their gender? Maybe I have a higher confidence in women than they do!

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#260

Post by moistgorilla »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #201
nine_k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While their behavior was entirely legal and protected by the First Amendment, the problem lies elsewhere. It's in the utter lack of tolerance to the views not conforming to the group's, not unlike the reaction religious extremists would display. Can't help but quote: -- The Emperor summons before him Bodhidharma and asks: “Master, I have been tolerant of innumerable gays, lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, blacks, Hispan…

You seem to have bought into fair and balanced horseshit. There are certain views that are morally superior to others, just as there are certain hamburgers that are better than others. Taking rights away from other people loosely based on ancient superstitions (the Bible says nothing about allowing gays to marry but says a lot about how to punish them -- the only reason Eich and his ilk aren't politically promoting t…

Under what moral framework are you judging Eich? I can think of many ways what Eich did could be construed as morally neutral and/or morally positive.

Not that I think gays shouldn't have the right to marry. It's just that your idea of what makes something moral is horribly naive and self-serving.

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