The Yale Problem Begins in High School • Hacker News Board

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#191

Post by ploxiln » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #127

jseliger wrote: post #12

I've taught at two colleges and based on my (purely) anecdotal experiences and attention to the climate, I'd say that the number of students and faculty interested in stifling or censoring ideas is small but also very, very noisy. They also have no sense of humor and college administrators as a group have no sense of humor or perspective, and they're chronically worried about accusations of indifference or insensitiv…

The problem with "balancing viewpoints" argument is that it isn't based on a critical ethos and so it cannot progress on the basis of logos. You can have a "balanced viewpoint" and still have debates about "whether the moon is made of the body of Vince Foster or not." There are certain ideas that just don't belong in a university setting because they are bunk and this has nothing to do with diversity of opinion. It s…

Indeed. Some stuff is really clearly not true, and we shouldn't need to work to make space and provide representation for it in schools and such.

But how do we avoid the problem where if I suggest that maybe the moon isn't all Vince Foster all the time, I'm an evil person? (a racist, and oppressor of women?) Can we get to a place, not where we agree that the moon could be made of Vince Foster, but where one can suggest it's not Vince Foster without being literally ostracized, from schools and jobs?

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#192

Post by waylandsmithers » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

This drove me out of the humanities completely when I was in college. The topic of discussion in a class freshman year was whether natural selection still or ever applied to humans. I said no, because decisions on how many kids you have tends to vary from culture to culture, and I mentioned specifically Catholicism and the 1 child law in China. And I was called racist.

Never got accused of being racist in Calc.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#193

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #129

richard_mcp wrote: post #45

I was originally going to lump this article in with other "men's rights movement" stuff until I saw the author was Jonathan Haidt. I had the honor to take Psyc 101 with Prof. Haidt years ago at the University of Virginia. He was a wonderful teacher who expected the best out of his students. He struck me as a very intelligent man who had put a lot of thought into both what he taught as well as his opinions. When he br…

I hope this experience opened your eyes to the anti-pattern of 'lump this article in with other "men's rights movement" stuff '

And vice versa! Biggest problem the internet currently has around these social justice issues is that the loudest voices are often extremists on one side or the other completely lacking empathy for anyone different from themselves.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#194

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

genericresponse wrote: post #162

Just for everyone's awareness, there is a broad astroturf and professional political push that has been happening for over a year by FIRE, a right leaning think tank. This is a concerted effort to bring controversy around campus free speech into the news. My perception is that this is an effort to weaken student's ability to speak freely, but is coded as a "free speech" issue. Similar to how many churches coded marri…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Individual_Righ...

A summary of some of the universities and cases they've dealt with. They seem to be fitting their self-described role of a civil liberties group more than your ascribed role as a "right leaning think tank". Civil libertarians fit on both ends of the traditional right/left spectrum, see the ACLU for another group that ends up (not always, but at least on many issues) on both sides of the left/right spectrum in an effort to defend civil liberties.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#195

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:46 PM UTC

lumberjack wrote: post #25

These people act this way because they are elitist. They think they know what should be better than anyone else and therefore there is no need for debate or for rights like free speech. I find that quite ironic because presumably, these people subscribe to left leaning ideologies. But maybe there isn't so much of a contradiction. They are simply more elitist than they are anything else. They don't really stand for eq…

Their argument is demonstrative rather than persuasive (although there is a persuasive component, but they expect interlocutors to be familiar with structuralist theory, which is not unreasonable in an academic setting). I'm not sure this is the most effective way to communicate their ideas, but the frustration and discomfort they are causing to other people is something that they have a lifetime's experience of, which is why they are able to push people's button's so effectively. They are showing people what it feels like to be unexpectedly and unjustly placed into an out-group.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#196

Post by xenihn » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:46 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #177

coreyp_1 wrote: post #137

This directly relates to us in tech. Specifically, there is a huge push to reach out to women and girls in CS. I am not opposed to females in CS at all. I will encourage males and females alike to pursue it, because I see CS as the great equalizer; the only thing that matters is what you produce. What I can't stand are these "Women in technology" conferences and workshops to "close the (gender) gap". Why? Because if…

>I don't care about the men/women ratio. I don't care about clothing styles, but if you dress very strangely, I'll judge you just the same. You know why? It's because dressing strangely means you do care about style, and even though I don't care about style, I do care about priorities, and I might find your prioritizing of style to be counter-productive and off-putting. So yeah, I actually do care about style, becaus…

>I don't care about clothing styles, but if you dress very strangely, I'll judge you just the same.

That is a direct contradiction. You acknowledge as much right after. What's even the point of writing this and posting it?

>And right now, you are not focussing on technology, but on gender issues. So you're a hypocrite. You care enough about gender to voice an opinion, but only to lash out at others who dare to have an opinion?

You either ignored his point or completely misunderstood it. I can't tell which. Then you also made a strawman.

>People have different priorities from you. Some people want a safe, encouraging work/hobby community. Some people want role models. Who are you to say they shouldn't work to create those, and instead work to get what you want?

Ok, I'm wondering if maybe English isn't your first language and something is getting lost in translation here. Your points just...make absolutely no sense. It's like you're responding to a fictitious argument that you've constructed in your mind.

Anyways, responding to that bit: So different priorities means, to you, that it's fair to disenfranchise a group? You think that it's preferable to raise one group up at the expense of another, as opposed to striving for equality? I get very serious "your rights end where my feelings begin" vibes from your way of writing.

>Have you considered the possibility that you are actually wrong about what you believe?

Have you?

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#197

Post by ams6110 » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:46 PM UTC

spinlock wrote: post #126

ffn wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well according to that Vox article about that liberal prof who got censored (and links therein) linked by the parent comment, the following things: 1. works of Edward Said 2. works of Mark Twain 3. works of Upton Sinclar 4. works of Maureen Tkacik 5. Ovid's Metamorphoses 6. The movie Avengers 7. Debates about abortion 8. Some "Afrobeat" band that had too many white people in it 9. Some male professor who was "creepy"…

I'm pretty sure Chris Rock self-censored and doesn't play colleges anymore. But, he still plays other venues.

Yes, he said (paraphrasing) that college kids don't have a sense of humor anymore, they just get outraged at everything.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#198

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #179

rthomas6 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some. Note that I do not necessarily believe these ideas, just that they are considered taboo to the point that they cannot be tolerated or seriously discussed in certain circles. * The USA is a moral country. * The USA is morally superior to most/all other countries. * A specific member of an in-power "preferred" group can experience unjustified prejudice, oppression, and bullying from members of an out-of-…

> Poor whites are not a privileged class. I just wanted to respond to this because (like a lot of these ideas) I think they represent a response to a strawman. The core point of the discussion of privilege acknowledges that all people have privileges. The question then is defining what they are and how useful they are. When talking about white privilege, the point is that poor whites are better off than poor blacks,…

> When talking about white privilege, the point is that poor whites are better off than poor blacks, just by virtue of being white.

Its not clear to me that that that's true; there is complicated intersectionality at play. Poor whites are more likely to have social networks and other advantages that provide things useful to getting out of poverty, and may -- due to racism and the racially unequal distribution of wealth and power -- have better responses from people in power independent of their own social networks.

OTOH, they may also be more likely to have social networks that are less understanding of an accepting of poverty.

Whether this is a net advantage or net disadvantage varies, among poor whites, considerably from individual to individual.

Group privilege exists mostly in terms of average conditions across groups (and may not thus be particularly useful in discussing the positions of individuals.)

Taking White privilege as a given (which I think does accurately reflect reality, in terms of on-average advantage), I'm not sure that poor White privilege (compared to, poor non-White ) is valid; its certainly not a necessary corollary of White privilege.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#199

Post by wildmusings » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #112

lumberjack wrote: post #25

These people act this way because they are elitist. They think they know what should be better than anyone else and therefore there is no need for debate or for rights like free speech. I find that quite ironic because presumably, these people subscribe to left leaning ideologies. But maybe there isn't so much of a contradiction. They are simply more elitist than they are anything else. They don't really stand for eq…

The interesting part is not why these people do this, but why they are winning.

This is the most interesting part of the whole phenomenon. I think the answer is that everyone is scared to confront them. The modus operandi of this movement is to personally attack the character of anyone who disagrees with them. They've toppled university presidents, CEOs, and politicians. They got Rolling Stone to publish a completely unsubstantiated article falsely accusing a bunch of young men of a vicious gang rape. No one wants to be next.

Re: The Yale Problem Begins in High School

#200

Post by sinxoveretothex » Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 7:47 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #177

coreyp_1 wrote: post #137

This directly relates to us in tech. Specifically, there is a huge push to reach out to women and girls in CS. I am not opposed to females in CS at all. I will encourage males and females alike to pursue it, because I see CS as the great equalizer; the only thing that matters is what you produce. What I can't stand are these "Women in technology" conferences and workshops to "close the (gender) gap". Why? Because if…

>I don't care about the men/women ratio. I don't care about clothing styles, but if you dress very strangely, I'll judge you just the same. You know why? It's because dressing strangely means you do care about style, and even though I don't care about style, I do care about priorities, and I might find your prioritizing of style to be counter-productive and off-putting. So yeah, I actually do care about style, becaus…

> And right now, you are not focussing on technology, but on gender issues. So you're a hypocrite. You care enough about gender to voice an opinion, but only to lash out at others who dare to have an opinion?

When two unrelated fields clash (say science and religion to illustrate the point with different topics), you have to "take a stand" on both even if you want to care only about one of them.

In the specific case of the previous poster, I think that what he means is that he wants the most important criteria to be about technology. Inevitably, that means that gender ratios are only secondary considerations to those.

Maybe that stance is to focus on gender issues in your view. But in that case, what would a stance that focuses only on technology?