Transgender children and gender dysphoria • Hacker News Board

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#21

Post by j4kp07 » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:11 AM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #17

jonesb6 wrote: post #10

I think the fact that our society is being more thoughtful towards gender identity is a good thing. But is it possible in our attempt to be thoughtful we sometimes will over analyze individual situations and change our environments, interactions, and treatment, towards those we are trying to help in such a way that it is actually detrimental to them? In the case of allowing children to choose their identity in the wa…

> a short-term change that could be detrimental to a child's development (socially, academically, etc)? Why should letting a child explore their gender identity be any more detrimental to their development than letting them explore their sexuality? It'd be far worse to tell them to repress it and not let them come to understand themselves.

Note that the OP said "COULD be detrimental" while you shoot from the hip with a definitive "It WOULD be far worse [otherwise]".

"Why should letting a child explore their gender identity be any more detrimental to their development than letting them explore their sexuality?"

Because some kids, sometimes, make stupid decisions. Also, what 3-year-old (from the original article) needs to "explore their sexuality"?

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#22

Post by chipsy » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:12 AM UTC

imh wrote: post #11

Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really? All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex. Drop…

Gender is - or was - convenient. With binary genders you have a convenient model to categorize people into different groups, in the same way that you can categorize by age, skin color, language, homeland, or religion. Politically, categories are mostly used to drive up the "us vs. them" tension factor that unifies groups, and pushing for harder-edged definitions of gender and gender roles is a convenient way to politicize just about everything in a human life. Further, it naturally works out that your voting bloc floats at around 50% when you appeal to the gender binary, which helps sustain the division in a way that you can't get with things like "race" or "religion".

Of course, one of the truisms of data modelling is that it never captures 100% of the system, and it's guided by your expectations of what the system will look like. Our push to digitally model everything exaggerates all the points of breakage. In the same way that you end up with people whose legal name are flagged fake by Facebook, or reverse image searches that think black people are "gorillas", you end up with a lot of data points that are bad fits for a model of binary gender.

This is not a huge surprise when humans are equated with other mammals in all their variety. But we have the problem of being emotional, well-socialized, and biased first, and smart second. So we're probably just going to have an extremely long culture war to rethink this categorization, with specious arguments trotted out at every turn.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#23

Post by j4kp07 » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:14 AM UTC

rustynails77 wrote: post #6

SN76477 wrote: post #2

I feel like we are confusing children with people that have actual gender identity issues. My 5 year old can decide what her favorite color is, much less what gender she wants to be the rest of her life.

At 5, one of my kids loved to flirt with the girls. My other son played with a girl who was a tomboy because they liked rough and tumble and both gave as good as they got. There are so many ways that young kids can identify strong characteristics, even at 5 years old. I can't guarantee they won't change (although my kids haven't changed as far as I can recall). The first incident I remember (while not gender related)…

"Over a decade later, he still has that same fussiness with fabrics. This tells me that some preferences are there from a very young age."

And my 5-year-old used to like raw lemons. This tells me some preferences change from a very young age. What is your point?

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#24

Post by tomlock » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:18 AM UTC

jonesb6 wrote: post #10

I think the fact that our society is being more thoughtful towards gender identity is a good thing. But is it possible in our attempt to be thoughtful we sometimes will over analyze individual situations and change our environments, interactions, and treatment, towards those we are trying to help in such a way that it is actually detrimental to them? In the case of allowing children to choose their identity in the wa…

I think the article is quite aware of that over analysis - and even mentions that a high amount have been found in some studies to not transition in later life. I guess the question is, what are we more willing to risk? Is it worth risking higher rates of suicide and self harm versus, at least in the case of blockers, a delayed puberty?

Should people get tattoos if they are confident now that they should?

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#25

Post by gbanfalvi » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:20 AM UTC

gnah wrote: post #14

If I had grown up in a culture this accepting of transgender people I would have transitioned. That would have been the worst decision of my life. I've grown into my identity as a man since then and I'm thankful for my parents and society pushing me in the right direction. We need to be careful to avoid putting borderline cases like me into a group with such high rates of suicide and depression.

You would have only transitioned after lots (maybe years) of sessions with doctors and therapists where they would have made sure that it's really what you need.

As the article mentions, the biggest change right now is delaying puberty for some kids so that if they _are_ trans, they get the chance to transition more easily later in life.

Regardless, I'm glad that you're happy with your body.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#26

Post by Uhhrrr » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:24 AM UTC

The worrisome thing here is that batman outfits and swords are used as proof of the "boy" identity and pink princess stuff as proof of the "girl" identity. This is complete crap - gender roles are not dictated by which aisle of Toys 'R' Us you favor.

I am willing to grant that the children profiled in the article aren't just in it for the toys, but the author is encouraging this perception, and I have seen more than a couple Bay Area parents buying into this, and rushing to call their kid gender-fluid as soon as they put on a dress.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#27

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:27 AM UTC

imh wrote: post #11

Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really? All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex. Drop…

Sex/gender together cover, as I see it, three main areas; all of which are complicated, but misery of which haven't been recognized as such (or even recognized at all) until fairly recently.

The first is biological (usually called "sex"), chromosomes and various traits. This is often percieved as being strictly binary, but it's not: the genetic traits and other features typical of one sex or the other don't always spread together, and often the most superficially obvious ones don't match the ones that have broader impact. So that's complicated in ways that are often not recognized.

Then there is socially ascribed roles (this is ones of the things usually labeled "gender"); these are the expectations put on someone by society related to masculinity or femininity.

The there is one's own perception of one's own masculinity or femininity (this is sometimes also referred to as "gender", but often, and more clearly, "gender identity").

This is complicated, because it shaped by lots of things, including social gender stereotypes, and whether they align our conflict with ones current socially ascribed gender.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#28

Post by Washuu » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:32 AM UTC

simplexion wrote: post #19

“I was wearing my Spiderman costume,” Tom, now five, remembers. I couldn't read past this. No... he doesn't remember that.

I remember being carried as a two year old up and down the long driveway at my parents' place so they could deposit poopy diapers in the trash bin.(Trash service was only available for a few years out there.)

We all remember moments from our early lives that seem odd.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#29

Post by empressplay » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:33 AM UTC

gnah wrote: post #14

If I had grown up in a culture this accepting of transgender people I would have transitioned. That would have been the worst decision of my life. I've grown into my identity as a man since then and I'm thankful for my parents and society pushing me in the right direction. We need to be careful to avoid putting borderline cases like me into a group with such high rates of suicide and depression.

Conversely, had I grown up when it was more accepted, I wouldn't have ended up having to fight against internal self-hatred to see who I needed to be, would have transitioned much sooner, would have consequently had a much easier re-integration into society, and wouldn't have been scarred by abuse, discrimination, and frequent thoughts of suicide.

You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to...

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#30

Post by empressplay » Mon, Nov 23, 2015, 5:37 AM UTC

Uhhrrr wrote: post #26

The worrisome thing here is that batman outfits and swords are used as proof of the "boy" identity and pink princess stuff as proof of the "girl" identity. This is complete crap - gender roles are not dictated by which aisle of Toys 'R' Us you favor. I am willing to grant that the children profiled in the article aren't just in it for the toys, but the author is encouraging this perception, and I have seen more than…

And you're right; these are totally two separate things (cross-dressing, for example, is not much of an indicator as to whether someone is transgender or not.)

Now, that said, kids should be free to wear whatever the hell they want, but nobody should take what they wear as an indicator as to what gender they would be more comfortable as.