To people using Drupal in production: can you share what you consider to be the sweet spot for using Drupal? Also, are you mostly using existing components, or leaning more toward custom development?
Legos - Custom built web app Duplos - Drupal, fully customized with some coding Pre-Built Toy - SquareSpace, Wix, even Wordpress to a certain extent It's a nice middle ground when you need something more custom than Wordpress and others can provide, but don't want to build everything from scratch.
Drupal 8.0.0 released
31–40 of 76 posts
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would argue that Drupal's target is much different than Wordpress'. Yes, Drupal has a tiny bit of focus on small sites, but Drupal can't contend with Wordpress, not even close. Wordpress is much faster to setup and get a nice looking site up and running. Where WP falls short is in the enterprise market, and this is where Drupal's ideal customer is. Drupal powers Tesla, Whitehouse.gov, Weather.com, Economist, NY.gov…
> Wordpress is much faster to setup and get a nice looking site up and running. I would argue that this is faster than most Wordpress setups: drush dl drupal drush si drupal ... drush en "name of theme" Wordpress is easier to set up only for the "I still use tools from a decade or two ago" crowd.
There are solutions catering to SAAS/application-specific hosting for both. Wordpress.com / Drupal Gardens as well as containers and configurations scripts you can use to get a jump start.
Both have similar philosophies in the sense you can login and immediately start switching on modules/extensions you want to use. Both are CMS.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#33To people using Drupal in production: can you share what you consider to be the sweet spot for using Drupal? Also, are you mostly using existing components, or leaning more toward custom development?
It replaced a commercial solution bringing more clarity (but that was also thanks to stricter rules in place defining types of docs, fields etc..), better graphic appeal (but just because the previous one was really crap) and also great search experience thanks to Apache Solr.
As I am a sysadmin, not a developer, I used all built-in modules except one that I modified in order to integrate the authentication with another business system via webservices (only code I developed). As I am also not a graphic, I worked with an external one (that prepared design in PSP so it was a bit a pain to convert it to template)
At that time (2009 I think) I reviewed few other options (WP, ezPublish, plone) but I chose Drupal because the authorisation system with roles etc.. was much more powerful than WP one.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#34As the operator of one of the larger Drupal-powered sites, I'm looking forward to playing with some of the news features and functionality (first on my personal site). Granted, I still dread making the transition from D7 to D8 for my production site with 200k registered users, 53k nodes, and 3m unique monthly visitors.
Care to link your site? Do you have any blog posts on how you manage to scale with drupal? Have you considered alternative solutions?
His blog also running D7 with 2 posts on Drupal, nothing on scale that I noticed quickly. http://johnhaller.com/development
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#35Another issue is maintenance. I don't think I've ever met a well-maintained contrib module; even ones that seem to be actively maintained aren't what I would call "well" maintained...reported bugs don't get fixed, patches don't get accepted or commented on (I have a half dozen bugfix patches spread across three or four projects, including one for something in core, that have gotten no response, some for months). While Drupal doesn't suffer from the crass commercialization that has befallen much of the WordPress ecosystem, it seems only companies paying for development get any sort of response. I don't have a problem with developers prioritizing paying customers (I do it with my own Open Source software, as well); but, when someone sends a patch that fixes a bug, at least comment on why you don't want to integrate it or give some guidance on what would make it acceptable for integration. I am beginning to feel like submitting a ticket to the Drupal issue tracker, even with a patch to fix the problem I'm reporting, is a waste of my time. If it were one project or module, this wouldn't be such a big deal; individuals get busy. But, I can't think of any Drupal module or project that I've ever had a good experience reporting issues on. And, if I didn't know that development is still ongoing, and that many new sites are being developed with Drupal, I would assume this extraordinarily poor level of interaction in the tracker was indicative of the impending death of the project.
There is also an academic love of complexity and abstraction in Drupal, almost to the point of absurdity, at times. Every new release introduces vast swaths of new terminology (often used in ways slightly unlike the rest of the industry use the term). Entities, nodes, rules, entity bundles, content types, views, entity references, delta, features, fields, hook, machine name, taxonomy, etc. About half of these do not mean what I would have guessed or are used in subtly different ways from what I would have guessed. And, it's impossible for a casual Drupal developer to stay on top of this stuff; it moves so rapidly, and is so poorly documented, one has to read code. And, there's a lot of code. Somehow, despite all the abstraction, most modules include huge swaths of code, and aren't particularly re-usable. Even very simple functionality seems to require pages of code. It's often more of a pain in the ass to make the re-usable components work in some way that the developers didn't think of than it is to implement from scratch. Partly this is my own shallow knowledge of Drupal, but I see experts building out entirely new modules to address very similar use cases to other modules they've made, so I'm not alone. Somehow, despite WordPress' much uglier code base, I'm generally able to implement stuff more rapidly than in Drupal; and many things that seem really locked down and hard to change in Drupal seem easy in WordPress.
The upgrade path is literally disastrous for non-core modules. One literally can't get from point A (a Drupal 6 site) to point B (a Drupal 7 site) without writing a lot of migration code, unless you're only using the most basic of core functionality. I'm months into a migration from D6 to D7. The new(-ish) Migrate module requires writing code, sometimes significant amounts of it, and is extremely poorly documented (and uses a bunch of its own jargon in confusing ways; the number of contexts in which the word "migration" is used for different purposes makes my head explode), and in-place upgrades don't exist for a large number of modules, including pretty important ones (like Project Issue, the module used by Drupal.org for its own issue tracker...it has no working upgrade path, at all).
I see the benefits that Drupal 8 brings. And, having worked with Drupal 7 for a few months now during this migration, I see that the direction is a positive one. But, I find myself being angry a lot whenever I work with it, because there's so much forward momentum (everything changes! all the time!) but nobody seems to give a shit about bugs, major usability problems, or providing a reasonable upgrade path. Really basic stuff that ought to go without saying, really doesn't in Drupal.
So, it's a real love/hate relationship. Which is true of every CMS I've ever used (and I've used a lot). I have decided to stick with Drupal through at least one more iteration and will launch our Drupal 7 site in a few days (if I'm lucky), but I don't know if I'll ever migrate to Drupal 8.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Wordpress is much faster to setup and get a nice looking site up and running. I would argue that this is faster than most Wordpress setups: drush dl drupal drush si drupal ... drush en "name of theme" Wordpress is easier to set up only for the "I still use tools from a decade or two ago" crowd.
Both have an easy CLI setup: http://wp-cli.org/ There are solutions catering to SAAS/application-specific hosting for both. Wordpress.com / Drupal Gardens as well as containers and configurations scripts you can use to get a jump start. Both have similar philosophies in the sense you can login and immediately start switching on modules/extensions you want to use. Both are CMS.
wp-cli is extremely brittle even for very simple download+install, produces very poor defaults in terms of file/directory permissions and general on-filesystem stuff, and this is before you get into things like drush's many other functions for general admin or its extensibility.
That is not a criticism of wp-cli's developers though, as about 99.9% of its limitations are down to the Wordpress core team's complete disinterest in accommodating its functionality well or in providing a codebase that fits into a modern deployment setup in any reliable, well-considered way.
The work done on wp-cli is really commendable: it seems to be battling against quite a tide.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would argue that Drupal's target is much different than Wordpress'. Yes, Drupal has a tiny bit of focus on small sites, but Drupal can't contend with Wordpress, not even close. Wordpress is much faster to setup and get a nice looking site up and running. Where WP falls short is in the enterprise market, and this is where Drupal's ideal customer is. Drupal powers Tesla, Whitehouse.gov, Weather.com, Economist, NY.gov…
> Wordpress is much faster to setup and get a nice looking site up and running. I would argue that this is faster than most Wordpress setups: drush dl drupal drush si drupal ... drush en "name of theme" Wordpress is easier to set up only for the "I still use tools from a decade or two ago" crowd.
WordPress's out-of-the-box post install experience is a lot nicer and a lot closer to being a "finished" and ready site.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've worked on many Drupal sites, and I would say the sweet spot is a client who is going to budget $10k+. Basically, under $10k budget means you should be looking at simpler, pre-baked solutions, like Wordpress, Squarespace, Shopify, Wix, static HTML, etc.. I've worked on Drupal projects from $25-250k+, and it can handle pretty much everything (sometimes requiring a lot of TLC tho). There are so many contributed mod…
This is some very useful insight, thanks! I've been asking this since at times, fully custom development (I ship Rails apps mostly, since 2005) is not the way to go, so I'm looking for other options where using modules (either custom or purchased) could help.
In a Drupal custom module you can do or change literally anything, and you can write whatever architecture you like for your individual component. You just have to integrate with the Symfony2 router and dependency injection container. Pretty cool stuff.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#39As the operator of one of the larger Drupal-powered sites, I'm looking forward to playing with some of the news features and functionality (first on my personal site). Granted, I still dread making the transition from D7 to D8 for my production site with 200k registered users, 53k nodes, and 3m unique monthly visitors.
Care to link your site? Do you have any blog posts on how you manage to scale with drupal? Have you considered alternative solutions?
Performance has been a specialty for me in my own drupal career. Drupal 8 is a whole new ballgame, though. Cache tags are built in from the ground up, and the page render/caching engine is built to mimic a reverse proxy. Rasmus Lerdorf (creator of the PHP language) benchmarked a pre release of drupal 8 at >2500 page views per second with 20 concurrents.
Re: Drupal 8.0.0 released
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've worked on many Drupal sites, and I would say the sweet spot is a client who is going to budget $10k+. Basically, under $10k budget means you should be looking at simpler, pre-baked solutions, like Wordpress, Squarespace, Shopify, Wix, static HTML, etc.. I've worked on Drupal projects from $25-250k+, and it can handle pretty much everything (sometimes requiring a lot of TLC tho). There are so many contributed mod…
This is some very useful insight, thanks! I've been asking this since at times, fully custom development (I ship Rails apps mostly, since 2005) is not the way to go, so I'm looking for other options where using modules (either custom or purchased) could help.
This is in part due to the relative complexity of setup. You do not get your grandma performing a one click install of Drupal and then spending $40 on a theme and buying an extension or two from a marketplace.
The focus on earning money with Drupal really seems to be in being a good developer and knowing how to use the thousands of opensource tools that are available to Drupal. You do not see people cranking out apps or modules for drupal and selling them in a marketplace. This really sets it apart from it's php cousins Magento and Wordpress.