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Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

nytimes.com

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Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#121

Post by DominikR »

lotux wrote: post #92
DominikR wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree, the Iranians are on a different level regarding education, academia and culture. They will eventually transform into a relatively free society if we don't interfere.

We don't need your freedom, we are free, you are slave of your credit card company and bank, mind your own business. -- An Iranian

I didn't say that you will want the same freedom or culture that we have.

I just comment on the fact that there is obviously a conflict between the well educated masses in Iran and the strict religious laws.

Can't just imagine your society will still be cutting of hands of thieves and hanging homosexuals publicly in 50 years.

Also I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me. -- A non-nationalist guy

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#122

Post by jqm »

mbrock wrote: post #108
jqm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not intended as flamebait. I think it's a legitimate question. What if a religion is the root cause of this behavior? What are the appropriate steps to take at that point? I'm not condemning Islam necessarily and certainly not Muslims but I think we need to stop dancing around and confront the issue of what an ideology is teaching. Is it appropriate for our world? If it isn't what do we do about it?

Sorry but "Is the second largest religion appropriate for our world?" is a flamebait question whether you intend it to be or not. Per the guidelines, it would be totally okay to talk about it if you had something interesting to say about it, but you don't.

"Lots of people are doing it" is never a good argument.

That aside, I find the hypocrisy of _your_ flaming of my post and general lack of content... amusing.

Unless you are actually a moderator, I'd feel better if you kept your moderation to yourself.

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#123

Post by fukusa »

notliketherest wrote: post #8
smegel wrote: post #2

And when the oil runs out, just another ISIS.

This. The oil that turns the crank of industry and provides the energy that produces so much of every comfort we hold dear in the west finances the very evil that seeks to destroy it. Until we end our reliance of oil, the middle east and Islam will continue to threaten the West's existence. It's a horrible irony.

As I have said before: (Islamist) extremism is mostly reactionary. The cause is not Islam.

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#125

Post by hackuser »

dragontamer wrote: post #62
amalag wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how one theocracy, Saudi Arabia, is ok, but the other theocracy, Iran, is bad.

Not really. The US shot a missile at Iranian Airliner (killing all civilians on board) and coup'd Iran's Democracy in the 1960s. Iran held US personnel as hostages for a year and imprisons our visitors. They are also sworn enemies to US Allies like Israel. Iran is "bad" because they are our enemy. And they see the US as "bad" because we've been their enemy in the past. There is absolutely nothing strange about the ha…

Iran was a U.S. ally under the Shahs, whose reign lasted from the coup we supported or engineered (against their mostly democratic government) in 1953 until the revolution in 1979. Many/most 9/11 perpetrators, including Osama Bin Laden, came from Saudi Arabia; there is plenty of reason for the U.S. to hate them.

All countries (or other groups) can find reasons to hate or love each other. Look at France and Germany, close allies now but plenty of opportunity for hate. All it takes is an effective political leader to manipulate the public in whatever way suits them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#126

Post by jacquesm »

nickff wrote: post #116
0xFFC wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Iranian (I am commenting from Tehran) I completely approve your point of view.I even explained in long comment in this post(you can find it in bottom).Iranian regime nightmare is liberal people( because they are the most effective opposition to current regime, all of other opposition's dismantled by regime very easily they don't even exist in society). you know why? Because they are only threat to nature of this u…

From the perspective of a Western government, Iran's international relations are the problem.[1] The fact that Iran's society is relatively advanced does little to console the families of the 1100 American soldiers killed by Iranian proxies in Iraq; nor does it console the families of the hundreds (if not thousands) of Israeli civilians killed by (Iranian government supported) Hamas. State support for the Assad regim…

I think the US/Iran resentment goes back a bit further, roughly to the time that Iran took a whole pile of US hostages that were held for more than a year.

That's not the sort of thing that is easily forgotten and it is one of the cornerstones of West/Islam conflict.

After that it was mostly a downward spiral, with some recent relaxation on both sides of the line.

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#127

Post by idibidiart »

ptaipale wrote: post #89
pearjuice wrote: post #25

This is a friendly reminder that the United States have sponsored ISIS when they were still considered freedom fighters against Assad. The United States also happily still do business with ISIS in that they are buying extremely cheap, under market value, oil and capital goods from Iraq exported by ISIS. Of course, none of this is officially documented, just like how not a dollar its whereabouts, of the 40 billion dol…

> This is a friendly reminder that the United States have sponsored ISIS when they were still considered freedom fighters against Assad. Not really. United States sponsored other opponents to Assad, which were then sufficiently marginalized as to be either annihilated or convert to Daesh, but they clearly weren't Daesh at the time.

Opponents of Assad? LOL. Have you been in a war before? Obviously not, not even close.

Here, educate yourself on how wars work: https://www.facebook.com/UniversalFreePress/videos/110928687...

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#128

Post by dorfsmay »

turar wrote: post #9

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303...

This make sense, both follow the same book, both are considred ultra-orthodox movement, which does give credence to the OP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#129

Post by vinceguidry »

jqm wrote: post #81
mbrock wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidelines for commenting on Hacker News ask you to avoid bringing up flamebait topics without having anything new or interesting to say about them.

That's not intended as flamebait. I think it's a legitimate question. What if a religion is the root cause of this behavior? What are the appropriate steps to take at that point? I'm not condemning Islam necessarily and certainly not Muslims but I think we need to stop dancing around and confront the issue of what an ideology is teaching. Is it appropriate for our world? If it isn't what do we do about it?

> If it isn't what do we do about it?

I don't think there's anything new to understand here. Outlaw it where we can, conduct diplomacy to try to get countries that don't outlaw it to outlaw it. War is a last-ditch option, one that I don't think should be off the table, but we need to go into it clear-headed with a sane understanding of what we can and cannot accomplish.

The Middle East is practically defined by war. Bringing more of it to that region isn't really going to do anything.

I actually think of Isreal as a model to work off of. Build bastions of Western ideals in the region and let the locals decide for themselves which ideology they want to be a part of. Isreal's main problem in this regard is how they treat the Palestinians, but I'm optimistic that they'll eventually work it out. If Isrealis can figure out how to adopt welcoming stances to non-Jewish immigrants, they could become an even bigger magnet for youth than the terror organizations.

Re: Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It

#130

Post by jacquesm »

sampo wrote: post #114
0xFFC wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Iranian (I am commenting from Tehran) I completely approve your point of view.I even explained in long comment in this post(you can find it in bottom).Iranian regime nightmare is liberal people( because they are the most effective opposition to current regime, all of other opposition's dismantled by regime very easily they don't even exist in society). you know why? Because they are only threat to nature of this u…

Now that there are negative experiences on the consequences of overthrowing the regime in Iraq, Libya, Syria, it might unfortunately take a long time before the West will have courage to support a regime change in Iran.

Why would the West have to support such a change? It can only happen from within, just like that last time that Iran decided on Regime Change and showed they were perfectly capable of getting rid of their leader of the day (the Shah). Persia ceased to exist and Iran was born, much against the wish of the West and without any of its support (rather the opposite). I'm pretty sure that Iran can manage the next transition just fine. Though it may be a while. If we want to expand IS territory then by all means, let's mess in Irans internal affairs.
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