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Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

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101–110 of 122 posts

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#101

IMO, there exist good arguments against surveillance. But why are supposedly rational geeks so irrationally prone to putting forward very bad arguments against it? See almost every reply in this thread to prove my point, but I will list a few: 1) If one took basic statistics, one would deem the proposition that "X is useless because [a target of X] has just slipped through" as outrageously wrong and a prime example o…

Outlawing torture didn't make a lick of difference.

Anyone who trusts an institution which repeatedly lies, tortures, and murders with impunity, an institution responsible for millions of deaths, is insane.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#102
post #47

Notice we don't see calls for more surveillance after domestic shootings/terrorism. Well, body cams for police is maybe an exception. But schools, churches, and movie theaters get shot up weekly. I think the illusion that somehow the surveillance apparatus filters out white people and only focuses on terrorism lets Americans feel okay with it. Also I don't think most people realize how almost every action and thought…

> I would like to see some politician formulate a response the involves boosting these Middle Eastern economies and schools and "bombing" them with movies and music from LA.

Exactly. That is how you win an ideological war. Hollywood and rock music were perhaps the most powerful Capitalist weapons in the cold war. Culture and wealth. Thats how you win, not by humiliating and traumatizing entire nations.

There is this awesome party going on in the developed world, if we can just lessen the income inequality problem it's all just going to get better.

And now we even have a decent shot at mitigating climate change with the age of cheap solar pv.

But what are we offering the mideast? Bombs, drone strikes, hellscapes, failed states.

When the Khmer Rouge first got started, they only had 5,000 followers. It was only after Kissinger's massive bombing of Cambodia ("anything that flies on anything that moves") that they were able to attract 200,000 followers and take over.

That's what trauma does. When people feel violated they get angry and they want to take their power back. That is the engine that ISIS feeds on.

We had a small, isolated enemy in the form of Al Qaeda, and in response we managed to alienate and humiliate a huge swath of the world. Now we have too many enemies to deal with militarily.

That's what Obama is admitting when he says sending 50,000 troops to Syria won't work. Because what happens when ISIS starts up in Yemen, or somewhere else. All of this war is an expensive drain on the west, we will get spread too thin. The occupations don't even work.

And make no mistake, this soft target terror is going to be a huge economic drain on the west. The fear, the security spending. It's our economies that are really vulnerable to this kind of thing.

So far the war on terror has this perverse viral coefficient. We create more terrorists than we kill. We kill more terrorists, we make the problem even bigger.

It's time to develop a new strategy.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#103
post #89
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less cynical than those things (you're taking about CMU here, right?) They're not, like, supervillains.

Did I call the EFF superheros? And my question about the FBI was more-general. In light of their use of informants against political dissidence, among other problems with their methods, is it even ethical, never mind cynical, to work with the FBI?

I don't think I would ever work with the FBI. I had to think about it for a second, because, obviously, there are a lot of crimes that the DOJ works on that we can all agree they should be attacking. But the kinds of crimes where they can most use the kind of help I can provide are the ones I'm least comfortable with them working on.

When I was much younger (in my late teens), I worked with prosecutors on a case in Seattle --- pro bono, not for money. It was such a bad experience that I wound up going on strike until they sent me a written apology.

All the stories I've ever heard about security people collaborating with prosecutors or the FBI or USSS have been horror stories.

Later: I should add that I don't grant the premise that the FBI uses informants to crack down on political dissidents --- the Hoover-era FBI surely did, but then, the FBI was not the worst part of the politics of the late 60s.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#104
post #68
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

"I can't understand how people can still give governments the benefit of the doubt when they've been exposed as liars repeatedly for years." Because reasoning doesn't work that way, and many people don't grow up in nice conditions. AKA the vast majority of people are poor and have hard lives, aka no time for research. You're on the internet, you are in the top percentage of wealthy people on the planet. See the scien…

>You're on the internet, you are in the top percentage of wealthy people on the planet. I don't really think that's true anymore. Especially with cheap smartphones or tablets, LTE towers and solar panels you can reach even rural africa.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#105
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did I call the EFF superheros? And my question about the FBI was more-general. In light of their use of informants against political dissidence, among other problems with their methods, is it even ethical, never mind cynical, to work with the FBI?

I don't think I would ever work with the FBI. I had to think about it for a second, because, obviously, there are a lot of crimes that the DOJ works on that we can all agree they should be attacking. But the kinds of crimes where they can most use the kind of help I can provide are the ones I'm least comfortable with them working on. When I was much younger (in my late teens), I worked with prosecutors on a case in S…

It sounds like the EFF is rather weakly cynical, if at all, compared to an FBI that now runs a network of 15,000 poor schlubs who have been bought or blackmailed into being the kind of informant network a Soviet-bloc state security outfit would build.

We're very lucky to have the EFF.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#106
post #79
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

> I can't understand how people can still give governments the benefit of the doubt when they've been exposed as liars repeatedly for years. Because in their model of the world, evidence derives from authority. They value phatic expression and hierarchy instead of deduction and reasoning. Before you can convince such people of anything, you must first learn to speak their language. http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2007/…

This article is fascinating and your comment is prescient, thank you very much for sharing this.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#107
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals do much more actual harm to society, and yet no is calling for local police to have access to everyone's email and phone records. Imagine how many crimes local police could prevent if they did have access? Unlike finding small terrorist cells among tens of millions of people, busting local criminals is very easy if you can spy on their communication. They could probably save thousands of children from serio…

>Criminals do much more actual harm to society, and yet no is calling for local police to have access to everyone's email and phone records. They are calling for mass video surveillance of everyone's encounters with police.

There may come a point at which police officers have such powerful gear (see: spider drones from Minority Report) that they can effectively monitor the population, but that's nowhere close to what we have with current bodycams.

"Mass surveillance is the intricate surveillance of an entire or a substantial fraction of a population in order to monitor that group of citizens."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#108
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I would ever work with the FBI. I had to think about it for a second, because, obviously, there are a lot of crimes that the DOJ works on that we can all agree they should be attacking. But the kinds of crimes where they can most use the kind of help I can provide are the ones I'm least comfortable with them working on. When I was much younger (in my late teens), I worked with prosecutors on a case in S…

It sounds like the EFF is rather weakly cynical, if at all, compared to an FBI that now runs a network of 15,000 poor schlubs who have been bought or blackmailed into being the kind of informant network a Soviet-bloc state security outfit would build. We're very lucky to have the EFF.

If you want to win arguments this way, do it stylishly; tell us we're lucky to have EFF because at least they're not Aum Shinrikyo.

EFF does some good things, and some things I think are less good. I think we're luckier to have the ACLU.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are people (like myself) who can look at the numbers, realize that you are MANY times more likely to die by slipping and falling in your own bathroom That's another example of a wrong argument often used. All animals (and yes, humans are animals) pay more attention to predators than to random accidents, and there is an evolutionary reason for that.

There's an evolutionary reason for all manner of cognitive biases. That doesn't mean that behavior is correct.

"Correct" is not the issue here. The issue is that the behavior exists, is powerful, and must be accounted for. If you have a country-wide fascist freakout against a minority group, it doesn't matter whether the source was "correct" (technical term: adaptive) bias or a maladaptive one.

Re: Baseless Calls to Expand Surveillance Fit Familiar, Cynical Pattern

#110
post #6

Why should we listen? France already massively ramped up their surveillance state after the Hebdo attacks (the perps were known to them beforehand anyway), and that did absolutely nothing to stop a much larger and more complex attack, also with known perps. A panopticon can't stop terrorists from lashing out violently, but it can certainly chill speech and promote totalitarian government. That's their angle: use the…

I think that for things which are far away, people are free turn their beliefs in any direction which suits them. There's no obvious feedback to one's actions except for the reaction of others when they discover your political beliefs.
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