Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#191

Post by woah » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

adrianmacneil wrote: post #127

Uptrenda wrote: post #114

I've always found it ironic how companies like Coinbase are indirectly contributing to their own destruction with every passing transaction that's not purely based around Bitcoin. This is of course: assuming that Bitcoin gets as big as a lot of people think it will. If it does: their increased focus on centralization and traditional fintech services (which is completely incompatible with the philosophy behind Bitcoin…

As someone who used to work at Coinbase, hopefully I can shed some light on this. First of all, Bitcoin should not be seen primarily as a currency, but as a protocol. Therefore, bitcoin does not need to increase in value for it to be successful, and in the long term the price is irrelevant. Bitcoin can be used as a medium of exchange without regard to the price, and many people at Coinbase believe in this future (rat…

As a protocol, it's not great. There's a lot more flexibility in a lot of the new consensus protocols coming out that can run Turing-complete contracts etc. Look at all the hoops that need to be jumped through to do stuff like colored coins, payment channels, etc. in Bitcoin vs protocols with smart contracts.

Anyway, that's irrelevant. If Bitcoin is for some reason the best protocol to be used, why would someone want to enrich the current holders of Bitcoin (of which I am one, by the way). Transferring value to Bitcoin necessitates buying Bitcoins from existing Bitcoin holders, enriching them for no reason. Why wouldn't a bank or other financial institution just start from a clean slate?

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#192

Post by eli » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #163

drcode wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I just want to warn people away from putting significant Bitcoin holdings directly into Coinbase to use this card without being educated on the risks.

The risk of what? Coinbase stealing everyone users bitcoins and running away? Better not use any bank, credit union, or money transferring service to stay safe.

My bank deposits are FDIC insured

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#193

Post by toomim » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #39

Just a reminder to Bitcoin newbies: This card looks like an OK product (still open questions about how much coinbase is gaming the ask/bid spread) but just realize that this card does NOT use Bitcoin, it uses "Coinbase Bitcoin"[1] which is Bitcoin for which the coinbase company is managing your private key: You only truly own Bitcoins if you own the private key for the account (users of MtGox learn this the hard way…

coinbase.com/multisig

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#194

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

steven2012 wrote: post #93

wdewind wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deal with international finance but I do deal with payments within the US and I have to say I really disagree with you on KYC. Our KYC process absolutely prevents fraud from happening, and because we are liable for any transactions we process I can't imagine operating without it.

Lol absolutely prevents fraud from happening? That is impossible. KYC is more of a cover-your-ass requirement rather than fraud prevention. With millions of SSN and personal information being available after numerous breaches from health care, etc how exactly are you supposed to vett someone's identity over the Internet?

> KYC is more of a cover-your-ass requirement rather than fraud prevention.

Keister: Yours Covered.

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#195

Post by rockinghigh » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #163

drcode wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I just want to warn people away from putting significant Bitcoin holdings directly into Coinbase to use this card without being educated on the risks.

The risk of what? Coinbase stealing everyone users bitcoins and running away? Better not use any bank, credit union, or money transferring service to stay safe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#196

Post by 01Michael10 » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:35 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #163

drcode wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I just want to warn people away from putting significant Bitcoin holdings directly into Coinbase to use this card without being educated on the risks.

The risk of what? Coinbase stealing everyone users bitcoins and running away? Better not use any bank, credit union, or money transferring service to stay safe.

Banks, credit unions, and money transferring institutions are heavy regulated businesses that have to follow rules. Money you have in bank and credit union accounts are also insured.

Coinbase is a private company that is barely regulated. Any money put into Bitcoins should be money you are willing to lose.

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#197

Post by adrianmacneil » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #191

adrianmacneil wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who used to work at Coinbase, hopefully I can shed some light on this. First of all, Bitcoin should not be seen primarily as a currency, but as a protocol. Therefore, bitcoin does not need to increase in value for it to be successful, and in the long term the price is irrelevant. Bitcoin can be used as a medium of exchange without regard to the price, and many people at Coinbase believe in this future (rat…

As a protocol, it's not great. There's a lot more flexibility in a lot of the new consensus protocols coming out that can run Turing-complete contracts etc. Look at all the hoops that need to be jumped through to do stuff like colored coins, payment channels, etc. in Bitcoin vs protocols with smart contracts. Anyway, that's irrelevant. If Bitcoin is for some reason the best protocol to be used, why would someone want…

> There's a lot more flexibility in a lot of the new consensus protocols coming out that can run Turing-complete contracts etc

Agreed. But most open source protocols are/were not great. IPv4, SMTP, HTTPv1 all have massive flaws. Once open protocols start gaining momentum though, it's very hard to convince everyone to switch (and bitcoin has by far the most momentum behind it). That said, I'm very interested in Ethereum too.

> necessitates buying Bitcoins from existing Bitcoin holders, enriching them for no reason

If you use bitcoin purely as an intermediary, then you are buying and selling it at the same instant, so it really doesn't affect the price at all. The only thing that makes the price go up is more people hodling it.

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#198

Post by IkmoIkmo » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:41 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #39

Just a reminder to Bitcoin newbies: This card looks like an OK product (still open questions about how much coinbase is gaming the ask/bid spread) but just realize that this card does NOT use Bitcoin, it uses "Coinbase Bitcoin"[1] which is Bitcoin for which the coinbase company is managing your private key: You only truly own Bitcoins if you own the private key for the account (users of MtGox learn this the hard way…

Well no you're not really using bitcoin, not even Coinbase bitcoin. At the end of the day the creditcard simply uses a normal credit card transaction, which is denominated in dollars and paid for by Coinbase, in dollars, to the merchant.

All Coinbase does is 1) make sure you enough bitcoin to cover the transaction 2) sell your bitcoin to recoup the dollars they're paying on your behalf to the merchant

None of this has anything to do with the blockchain or bitcoin as a technology. It's purely a practical product to make it a bit easier to make payments when you have a lot of money stored in bitcoin. I doubt it'll be anything significant, various other players like Xapo did this in a similarly reasonably professional manner and none of that blew up, either.

The reason it's not all that interesting is 1) again, it has nothing to do with bitcoin/blockchain 2) you need to store your bitcoin at a centralised company, essentially creating the equivalent of a traditional bank or financial service with the same issues and with no real extra benefits 3) it solves none of the myriad of security and fraud issues that have plagued creditcards we've had for decades (creditcards are basically plastic sheets of text, the text being the password to your money vault, and you have to hand it over all the time to make payments. It's an insane security premise) 4) it's actually pretty expensive, not only are creditcards expensive (both due to fraud and because you're putting profit into the pockets of a middleman), but on top you're essentially doing a forex currency conversion (in this case bitcoin -> usd) everytime you make a payment.

They're advertising 'no fees' at the moment, of course that's not structural. In fact I'm a bit surprised that legal gave the OK to charge customers $10 for a product without communicating usage fees for said product on any specific timeline whatsoever, normally that's guaranteed trouble & customer complaints down the line. That's like your ISP charges you $100 to install your internet connection, then says 'no monthly internet fees for a limited time'. You can bet your ass it'll turn into a gigantic mess a few months later when you suddenly start charging usage fees.

Still, I welcome it. Making bitcoin more pragmatic for mainstream users is something I applaud. I just don't have high expectations for this particular product.

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#199

Post by morgante » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:41 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #39

Just a reminder to Bitcoin newbies: This card looks like an OK product (still open questions about how much coinbase is gaming the ask/bid spread) but just realize that this card does NOT use Bitcoin, it uses "Coinbase Bitcoin"[1] which is Bitcoin for which the coinbase company is managing your private key: You only truly own Bitcoins if you own the private key for the account (users of MtGox learn this the hard way…

> You only truly own Bitcoins if you own the private key for the account

Do I only own my dollars if I have them in cash?

Re: Introducing the Shift Card: Use Bitcoin where Visa is accepted

#200

Post by egd » Fri, Nov 20, 2015, 6:42 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #191

adrianmacneil wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who used to work at Coinbase, hopefully I can shed some light on this. First of all, Bitcoin should not be seen primarily as a currency, but as a protocol. Therefore, bitcoin does not need to increase in value for it to be successful, and in the long term the price is irrelevant. Bitcoin can be used as a medium of exchange without regard to the price, and many people at Coinbase believe in this future (rat…

As a protocol, it's not great. There's a lot more flexibility in a lot of the new consensus protocols coming out that can run Turing-complete contracts etc. Look at all the hoops that need to be jumped through to do stuff like colored coins, payment channels, etc. in Bitcoin vs protocols with smart contracts. Anyway, that's irrelevant. If Bitcoin is for some reason the best protocol to be used, why would someone want…

Can you point me to some of the consensus protocol work? That's always seemed to be the more interesting aspect of BTC to me, but the other requirements of the currency have made that harder than just the smart contracts alone.