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Benefits of Sarcasm

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#21

Post by danso »

coldtea wrote: post #18
danso wrote: post #6

One of the few lessons to stick with me from high school English was during the lesson on irony, when a student asked "Is sarcasm the same thing as irony?" and the teacher thought about it for a moment, before responding that, yes, it is, kind of, but it's the lowest form of irony. I really enjoy irony in life and in literature, so I try to avoid sarcasm as to not cheapen the fun of "higher" forms of irony (like fina…

I've seen tons of people pointing out some non-existent error with Alanis' use of "ironic" in that song. Most of them have this dictionary definition in mind: "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect." But they seem to forget the other meaning, probably because they never bothered to check the lemma in their dictionary: "a state…

I have to argue against that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for this secondary meaning: "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result".

The situation of "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not "deliberately contrary" to "what one expects". It may be contrary to what one wants...but that's not the same thing...otherwise, virtually every disappointment in life could be described as "ironic".

So finding "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not ironic, but frustrating. However, what would be ironic is if the narrator later realized that what she had actually needed was a spoon (because by the time she found a knife, all the steak was gone and only soup was left, perhaps)...and her frustration at finding 10,000 spoons was a fortuitous opportunity that she squandered.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#23

Post by moonchrome »

The worst thing about using sarcasm with coworkers who aren't on the same page is when they miss it and not only take it seriously but accept the statement. If you tell them/they figure out you were being sarcastic not only did they miss it in the first place they actually supported a sarcastic statement so they hate you for making them look stupid. If you don't tell them they find out it's wrong and think you're an idiot for suggesting it. It really curbed my use of sarcasm after school :(

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#24

Post by kelukelugames »

I've worked at a lot of companies where the devs are incredibly snarky. Most of the people making the jokes are straight, white, and male. I wonder if this is perceived as another barrier to minorities.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#25

Post by dragonwriter »

RKoutnik wrote: post #11
jkyle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like finally understanding Alanis Morisette's "Ironic" Would you mind explaining the deeper meaning of Morissette's song?

Not OP, but here goes: None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]). "Rain on your wedding day" isn't ironic, as "getting married" isn't attempting to prevent rain. However, writing a song that's supposed to be chock-full of ironic things where not a single one actually demonstrates irony IS ironic. So the song i…

> None of the examples in the song are actually ironic (i.e. taking an action with the intention of causing A which actually prevents A [or vise versa]).

There are several definitions of irony, and as far as I can tell, that's not any of them. The threefold division into verbal, situational, and dramatic irony presented in Wikipedia [0] seems reasonably typical. The song is overtly about situational irony, and the examples are all -- as would be expected -- situational irony (though in a few of the cases this is only apparent when you consider normal, but unstated, thought processes or planning that is likely to have occurred by the people in the events described; when describing a situation in half-dozen words, there is quite a lot of implicit context), and the longest example also features verbal irony in interior monologue of the subject of the example.

(And the delivery of the last stanza strongly suggest that the last two lines are, themselves, verbal irony.)

The usual complaints about the song not being ironic seem to result from restricting the definition of "irony" to dramatic irony, which the song doesn't feature (except perhaps in the longest example, where given the context of the situational irony of the previous examples and the initial setup, the eventual outcome is clear to the listener from the start.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#26

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

danso wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen tons of people pointing out some non-existent error with Alanis' use of "ironic" in that song. Most of them have this dictionary definition in mind: "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect." But they seem to forget the other meaning, probably because they never bothered to check the lemma in their dictionary: "a state…

I have to argue against that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for this secondary meaning: "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result" . The situation of "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not "deliberately contrary" to "what one expects ". It may be contrary to what one wants ...but that's not the same thing...o…

Has anyone attempted a Bayesian analysis of the problem?

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#27

Post by pjc50 »

rtl49 wrote: post #19

Instead of avoiding sarcasm completely in the office, the research suggests sarcasm, used with care and in moderation, can be effectively used and trigger some creative sparks. Who really has the presence of mind and self control to use sarcasm with "care and moderation" when in the midst of a work-related social interaction? I think this is just a silly extrapolation to draw from the evidence presented. Sarcasm can…

All professional communication demands a certain amount of care and moderation. Not just for humour but for criticism, praise, discerning preferences etc. Use of appropriate humour can greatly improve things but you have to know your audience.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#28

Post by coldtea »

danso wrote: post #21
coldtea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen tons of people pointing out some non-existent error with Alanis' use of "ironic" in that song. Most of them have this dictionary definition in mind: "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect." But they seem to forget the other meaning, probably because they never bothered to check the lemma in their dictionary: "a state…

I have to argue against that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for this secondary meaning: "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result" . The situation of "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not "deliberately contrary" to "what one expects ". It may be contrary to what one wants ...but that's not the same thing...o…

>The situation of "ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife" is not "deliberately contrary" to "what one expects". It may be contrary to what one wants...but that's not the same thing...otherwise, virtually every disappointment in life could be described as "ironic".

If you found a couple of spoons when you searched for a knife, that would be merely frustrating ("damn, where's a knife when you need it?"). It's also close to what you'd deliberately expect ("I either find some knife, or I find some other cutlery but no knife").

Getting 10,000 of them but no fucking knife is not just frustrating but also ironic -- and outside of expectations.

It agrees to a T with:

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result"

One would expect to either find the knife, or find a some other cutlery but no knife.

Chancing upon 10,000 cutlery items and ALL of them being spoons --just the kind you don't need-- seems both "deliberately contrary to what one expects" and "wryly amusing".

(Note that it doesn't have to BE "deliberately contrary" -- just to "seem" so, e.g. as when you feel that luck or the universe conspires against you).

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#29

Post by rtl49 »

pjc50 wrote: post #27
rtl49 wrote: post #19

Instead of avoiding sarcasm completely in the office, the research suggests sarcasm, used with care and in moderation, can be effectively used and trigger some creative sparks. Who really has the presence of mind and self control to use sarcasm with "care and moderation" when in the midst of a work-related social interaction? I think this is just a silly extrapolation to draw from the evidence presented. Sarcasm can…

All professional communication demands a certain amount of care and moderation. Not just for humour but for criticism, praise, discerning preferences etc. Use of appropriate humour can greatly improve things but you have to know your audience.

Humor, sure. But sarcasm comes by definition at the expense of an idea or another person. Thus I submit that the article has not adequately supported the argument that sarcasm can be helpful in the workplace.

Re: Benefits of Sarcasm

#30

Post by 6stringmerc »

To me, sarcasm is a form of a riddle, albeit one highly dependent on the trust and relationship between the two or more parties involved. A sarcastic statement does not always have to convey a "belittling" or "malicious" overtone, but can be much closer to a maxim, a form of wordplay, a metaphor, or an allegory. Or, in the case of the following Futurama quote, sarcasm can be a container for one of the above literary devices:

Professor Farnsworth: Is it true that stem cells may fight the aging process?

GeneWorks receptionist: Well yes. In the same way an infant may fight Muhammad Ali.

I like how the article points out that the over-arching caveat to the benefits of scarcasm involve the 'human capital' of trust. That reminds me of why my friends and I would use sarcasm with each other as games of wit, and why, on occasion, I'd cringe when one of my friends would be sarcastic, sometimes in a not-very-nice way, to a stranger who was simply trying to do their job. Or, in other words, sarcasm is a very powerful weapon in the "put down" game, and a large swath of the population isn't really mentally equipped or practiced in the contest, so it's a belitting thing...but when sarcasm ace meets sarcasm ace, holy cow it can be some funny material.

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