VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#711

Post by the_af » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 5:00 AM UTC

acqq wrote: post #707

the_af wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: pure, unreformed Abrahamic religions are not very peaceful. They are quite blood-thirsty and vengeful. Let's for a second agree that everyone reasonable wants their religion modernized and adapted to the current world (and ISIS, religious white supremacists, and abortion clinic bombers are not "reasonable"). We can disregard everyone who wants pure, unadulterated, literal Islam or Christianity. That said, there'…

No. You haven't read Quran. You would not be able to write what you do. Even in "Letter To Baghdadi" those who signed quote: www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf "God  says in the Qur’an: ‘Because of that, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, or for corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, it…

I'm sorry, "no"? "No" to which part?

That ISIS uses modern propaganda techniques?

To the article I linked?

To the assertion that holy texts need interpretation?

That there is a doctrinal dispute between factions of ISIS and Al-Qaeda, therefore showing there can be no single interpretation?

All of it?

You're so hell-bent in replying "wrong" and "no" to every post you disagree with, it's really hard to understand what you actually mean, beyond "here are some horrible passages from the Quran".

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#712

Post by fineman » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

webXL wrote: post #703

fineman wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cutting and running does not work. We're still in Germany and Japan 70+ years later and we'll have to have that kind of roadmap if we plan to help in the middle east. And help we must. We can't sit back and watch madmen kill millions, even if doing so would spite our idiot leaders (on all sides) who caused it in the first place.

Germany and Japan have tolerant and compatible cultures, and "world opinion" was controlled by the Allies. I don't think it's possible to shape "world opinion" anymore. The Koran doesn't permit any kind of integration and tolerance. Western "nation building" (rebuilding) is perceived as an attack on that religion. My own libertarian bent tells me that it's at least an unjust attack on their way of life, how alien tha…

An unjust attack on whose way of life? The girls being sold into slavery? The boys forced to fight or die? Those simply murdered?

I'm pretty sure the other 99.9% are hostages, and not half as committed to the bullshit as you think, except in stockholm-syndrome ways. Soon after they weren't being killed for not being fervent, they'd be as non-religious as we are.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#713

Post by webXL » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 6:49 AM UTC

fineman wrote: post #712

webXL wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany and Japan have tolerant and compatible cultures, and "world opinion" was controlled by the Allies. I don't think it's possible to shape "world opinion" anymore. The Koran doesn't permit any kind of integration and tolerance. Western "nation building" (rebuilding) is perceived as an attack on that religion. My own libertarian bent tells me that it's at least an unjust attack on their way of life, how alien tha…

An unjust attack on whose way of life? The girls being sold into slavery? The boys forced to fight or die? Those simply murdered? I'm pretty sure the other 99.9% are hostages, and not half as committed to the bullshit as you think, except in stockholm-syndrome ways. Soon after they weren't being killed for not being fervent, they'd be as non-religious as we are.

You think our occupation would prevent those things? I supported the Iraq invasion initially, and had some hope for the surge, but these wars are literally controlled by the news media, because every time a bomb goes off in the wrong place or a soldier shoots a kid for whatever reason, we get more tentative, and our troops lose support for their mission, then a new president comes a long to capitalize. I was wrong. 9/11 jaded and naive about that part of the world. Just cut our losses. Our government has bigger, more understandable, fish to fry.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#714

Post by acqq » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 9:39 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #711

acqq wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You haven't read Quran. You would not be able to write what you do. Even in "Letter To Baghdadi" those who signed quote: www.lettertobaghdadi.com/14/english-v14.pdf "God  says in the Qur’an: ‘Because of that, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, or for corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, it…

I'm sorry, "no"? "No" to which part? That ISIS uses modern propaganda techniques? To the article I linked? To the assertion that holy texts need interpretation? That there is a doctrinal dispute between factions of ISIS and Al-Qaeda, therefore showing there can be no single interpretation? All of it? You're so hell-bent in replying "wrong" and "no" to every post you disagree with, it's really hard to understand what…

The claims you make aren't based on even attempting to read Quran. So it's "no, you haven't read anything from the sources" you just try to make the case based on some bad articles, bad because they also haven't read from the sources or distort the facts enough to give a false impression. How do I know? I've read not only the line with the quote that is claimed to be peaceful but the whole chapter. You can do that too. Please read, then I'd like to see you writing with straight face what you wrote. Because it's not "some places." Just try reading that book, like, at least 20 percent. If you manage 20% then you'll be able to recognize the rest, as it's quite repetitive. I don't see why not reading? If it's really beautiful, peaceful and "nuanced" you'll feel good reading it, even the whole of it. It anyway inspires 1.5 billion people of the world. Find out how yourself.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#715

Post by acqq » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 10:40 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #709

acqq wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this was true, how come the vast majority of Muslims are not blood-thirsty maniacs? What "this" you mean? What I've written is true, specify what you doubt. Now... > Or maybe they modernized their religion There's no "modernization" as such but not every branch is as fanatic as the Wahhabis, the official branch in Saudi Arabia, and the direct religious base for ISIS. Saudis Invest billions in spreading their fan…

"This" means that if Islam is so obviously blood-thirsty, and this is the only possible mainstream interpretation of this religion, then how come the vast majority of Muslims are NOT killing the infidel? Yes, many Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia support ISIS; it's well-known this is a major source of funding. But how is this a counter to the fact the vast majority of Muslims -- are you aware that not all Muslims are Wahhabi…

Just read the Quran. See for yourself if a reader who decides to actually read the "actual words of god" would get that "contradictory" feeling or not.

After you read enough to have your view based on your own experience, also try to find out how many of those who believe claim those aren't the actual words of god but "some old contradictory texts." (As far as I know, only "apostates" dare to do so, once you read the original, you'll know why.)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#716

Post by acqq » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 1:26 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #710

acqq wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find your explanation about Mohammed utterly unconvincing, because most Muslims don't go around beheading people, only some. ISIS and people from backwards, poverty-stricken countries/communities do, Saudi Arabia is not poverty stricken, and they actually behead people for, for example, "adultery" or "homosexuality"(!) They invest 56 billion dollar per year for education, out of that billions for "exporting" thei…

Thanks, I know what Wahhabism is. Yes, the Saudis who support ISIS are wealthy. Do they represent the majority of Muslims?

Salafists don't "represent" but they surely attempt to become majority and the Wahhabis are the biggest financier of Muslim education abroad, which is especially surprising for Europeans as most people just now learn what was happening for decades among them.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#717

Post by the_af » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 2:10 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #716

the_af wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I know what Wahhabism is. Yes, the Saudis who support ISIS are wealthy. Do they represent the majority of Muslims?

Salafists don't "represent" but they surely attempt to become majority and the Wahhabis are the biggest financier of Muslim education abroad, which is especially surprising for Europeans as most people just now learn what was happening for decades among them.

I'm sure they attempt to represent the majority, just like ISIS claims to represent all of "true" Islam. But the fact remains that they don't.

Statistics show that most Muslims don't support ISIS: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-w...

Even in Saudi Arabia, support for ISIS isn't universal. According to this ( http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/isis... ) there is only 5% grassroots support for ISIS there. Now, even 5% is certainly worrying, but that's nowhere near universal.

Sorry, I remain unconvinced by your arguments.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#718

Post by the_af » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #714

the_af wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, "no"? "No" to which part? That ISIS uses modern propaganda techniques? To the article I linked? To the assertion that holy texts need interpretation? That there is a doctrinal dispute between factions of ISIS and Al-Qaeda, therefore showing there can be no single interpretation? All of it? You're so hell-bent in replying "wrong" and "no" to every post you disagree with, it's really hard to understand what…

The claims you make aren't based on even attempting to read Quran. So it's "no, you haven't read anything from the sources" you just try to make the case based on some bad articles, bad because they also haven't read from the sources or distort the facts enough to give a false impression. How do I know? I've read not only the line with the quote that is claimed to be peaceful but the whole chapter. You can do that to…

But I didn't attempt to read the Quran, so that cannot be the basis for your disagreement. I claimed that, since most Muslims aren't raving fanatics attempting to slay the infidel, there must be something more to Islam. I've also shown that people who have read the Quran (like a professor of religious studies who specializes in Islam) think it's open to interpetation.

I also think that understanding a religious book isn't as simple as sitting down one day and reading end to end. It's not just the Quran anyway; there is a huge body of followups that must be read in order to understand it. Some of them contradictory, some open to interpretation, some of varying degrees of reliability.

Have you read them all?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#719

Post by Cyph0n » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 3:33 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #699

Cyph0n wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is proof that that's how it started. These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially, then they were recorded by two scholars: Al Bukhari and Muslim. The methods they used for verification were amazing, which is why we believe most of what they deemed valid. If you'd like to know more about how they did this, I can elaborate. As for the Quran, it has been passed down by rote memorization. This is…

>> These "anecdotes" were passed down by narration initially You've heard of "Chinese Whispers" right?

Yes, I have.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#720

Post by acqq » Thu, Nov 19, 2015, 4:02 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #717

acqq wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salafists don't "represent" but they surely attempt to become majority and the Wahhabis are the biggest financier of Muslim education abroad, which is especially surprising for Europeans as most people just now learn what was happening for decades among them.

I'm sure they attempt to represent the majority, just like ISIS claims to represent all of "true" Islam. But the fact remains that they don't . Statistics show that most Muslims don't support ISIS: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-w... Even in Saudi Arabia, support for ISIS isn't universal. According to this ( http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/isis... ) there is only 5%…

I speak about Wahhabism, the official religious view in the whole Saudi Arabia, promoted abroad with their immense capital, so instead limiting the arguments to just "ISIS" is a major misdirection. Like that ISIS are the only one dangerous. They aren't.