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Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

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81–90 of 102 posts

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#81

Until there was cheaper paper, old books made of papyrus or goat skin would be scraped or bleached and recycled. A Single page of goatskin might be months farmer wage. Especially if the book was from a no longer popular language or subject.

True. There's even a word for it, "palimpsest".

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#82
post #79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed the recent IPCC report and keep up with science news, mostly via Ars Technica. A good summary is at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fifth_Assessment_Report """The global surface temperature increase by the end of the 21st century is likely to exceed 1.5 °C relative to the 1850 to 1900 period for most scenarios, and is likely to exceed 2.0 °C for many scenarios""" > I ask because as far as I ca…

It is not blindingly clear to those nations that are developing. China has brought their coal plants online and they use 4,361,427 thousand short tons of unfiltered or carbon captured coal to the United States carbon capturing EPA mandated 924,442 thousand short tons. Compare areas that have coal plants with those which do not in China versus America [3] and you can see that our nation has it under control and China…

The sooner we do it, the impacts will be smaller and it will be cheaper. The longer we wait, the more pain we're in for. Politics don't change that fact. No one said it would be easy, but burying our heads in the sand isn't going to solve anything.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#83
post #72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NOAA provided Rep. Smith with all the data, methods, and explanation he requested but has refused to hand over the communications of its scientists, which it regards as protected. I'd better hope so.

Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government? Think Steve Jobs asking a VP to show his reasons for obfuscating the reasons for sales figures reported over a period and then adjusted. VP: Sorry, that's confidential. In this situation, I'm paying the administrator (that person that governmental agencies are accountable to) to make sure those agencies aren't obfuscating their own reas…

That's not the correct analogy. The House has oversight to be sure money is not wasted, but not to monitor all dialogue between scientists.

For a summary of what's going on, better than I can do here, see this letter from another member of the House science committee:

http://democrats.science.house.gov/sites/democrats.science.h...

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#85

> We should have had a historian running around saying 'I don't care if you are ever going to use them -- we are going to keep them' The really couldn't figure out by themselves that they shouldn't throw away the visual evidence of one of the most important events in human history?

It's easy to forget just how little attention is paid to preservation if there isn't a person dedicated to it. This is why libraries, especially the Library of Congress, are incredibly important. Archivists are important. Historians are important. We need to be reminded of that, or we'll make the same mistakes over and over.

My suspicion is that everyone involved just assumed it was someone else's job to take care of that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the person who degaussed the tapes did so with the thought, "sure someone has backed this up."

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares what they think? I hate that the argument for a moon conspiracy is defended by the opinion of other states. In fact, Chainman Mao had an unofficial policy of denying the moon landing out of shame. Russia isn't a trustworthy nation and the US could have have a quid-pro-quo with them, say not bringing up their 100+ deaths at Nedelin or lost cosmonauts if they didn't make hay about a faked mission. The reality…

> Who cares what they think? They're one of the biggest holes in the conspiracy theory. State-level actors with much to gain by proving it to be a fake, the technology and know-how to do so, and nothing much to lose by revealing it. > Russia isn't a trustworthy nation and the US could have have a quid-pro-quo with them... In the height of the Cold War? Not bloody likely. > Their position would be more rational if the…

I think there were more than a few backroom deals regarding the space program back then. Soyuz 1 for example:

an NSA analyst, identified in the book as Perry Fellwock, described overhearing Komarov tell ground control officials he knew he was about to die. Fellwock described how Soviet premier Alexei Kosygin called on a video phone to tell him he was a hero. Komarov's wife was also on the call to talk about what to say to their children. Kosygin was crying.

--

The US was sitting upon a very embarrassing radio communication of Soyuz 1's failure and didn't act on it. You bet your ass this was traded for something valuable. The only reason we even know about this is because a non-state actor in Berlin happened to catch this conversation and told others about it.

I agree faking a moon landing is a bit much, but the argument that "Russia and the US agree" isn't really worth anything. Right now Russia and the US agree that ISIS is the biggest threat in Syria, for example, but from a casualties numbers perspective Assad is responsible for 10x to 20x the deaths. Political convenience often trumps truth.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#87

Until there was cheaper paper, old books made of papyrus or goat skin would be scraped or bleached and recycled. A Single page of goatskin might be months farmer wage. Especially if the book was from a no longer popular language or subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest

Just learned by reading Gore Vidal's autobiography of the same name.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#88
post #72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NOAA provided Rep. Smith with all the data, methods, and explanation he requested but has refused to hand over the communications of its scientists, which it regards as protected. I'd better hope so.

Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government? Think Steve Jobs asking a VP to show his reasons for obfuscating the reasons for sales figures reported over a period and then adjusted. VP: Sorry, that's confidential. In this situation, I'm paying the administrator (that person that governmental agencies are accountable to) to make sure those agencies aren't obfuscating their own reas…

> Why? We don't allow this in business, why should we allow this in the government?

Right. I keep forgetting that the USA have no concept of privacy and that everyone receiving a wage is treated like a part-time slave.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#89
post #82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not blindingly clear to those nations that are developing. China has brought their coal plants online and they use 4,361,427 thousand short tons of unfiltered or carbon captured coal to the United States carbon capturing EPA mandated 924,442 thousand short tons. Compare areas that have coal plants with those which do not in China versus America [3] and you can see that our nation has it under control and China…

The sooner we do it, the impacts will be smaller and it will be cheaper. The longer we wait, the more pain we're in for. Politics don't change that fact. No one said it would be easy, but burying our heads in the sand isn't going to solve anything.

But what would we do, how are we going to tell China or India, sovereign nations whose people are emerging from abject poverty, to knock it off? These nations are on a year over year increase path that by 2030 will see them doubling their CO2 emissions.

Are you willing to give them money and how much, what if they do not use it for appropriate actions?

Are you willing to force them to change, how do you propose forcing them? Are you willing to wage American lives now for a future probability?

The United States of America has done a great job reducing its environmental impact. Back in the day it was a rare event to see stars in Los Angeles because of the fog (the gaseous burning orb ones not the celebrities), but thanks to the EPA, it is a common occurrence now.

Re: Moon landing tapes got erased, NASA admits (2009)

#90

> We should have had a historian running around saying 'I don't care if you are ever going to use them -- we are going to keep them' The really couldn't figure out by themselves that they shouldn't throw away the visual evidence of one of the most important events in human history?

They could have just found another soundstage and reshot everything, surely, unless they got rid of the props and shooting script as well. But i'm certain I saw some of the props reused in the Outer Limits and Star Trek.
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