VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#641

Post by drumdance » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:34 PM UTC

mbrock wrote: post #532

woah wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them. Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.…

I don't know why people in general join ISIS but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it does in fact have to do with an "evil" appeal. Darth Vader made some good arguments, too. People love this kind of fantastical good/evil stuff. Who's good and who's evil depends on what side you're on, of course. Like that Russian book I heard about that's a rewrite of Lord of the Rings from Sauron's perspective. Look at what game…

The Lord of the Rings metaphor is apt. Musa Cerantonio preaches that ISIS is part of Allah's plan as laid out in the Koran. And that most Muslims should expect destruction.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#642

Post by drumdance » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:35 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #562

woah wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them. Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.…

>They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination. Bullshit. The people who are destroying ancient statues and slaughtering other Muslims didn't sign up for some grand scheme of bringing down the west after a reasoned argument. They signed up because they are violent psychopaths and they were given an avenue to do all of the fucked up things tha…

Do you really think every single one of them is a psychopath?

I think it's more like gangs. Kids join gangs because they want to belong to something bigger than themselves. ISIS offers something similar to people who feel alienated from the West.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by drumdance » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #580

woah wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them. Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.…

> Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination. I will not speak about young people joining ISIS, but I've known people who joined or wanted to join the military strictly to kill. These folks exist. You give them a strong ideological or philosophical reason to…

How do you explain the women joining ISIS?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by cygx » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

vukmir wrote: post #506

cygx wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the kind of place where you'd expect apostates to be killed, if anywhere? Not necessarily, no. Support for murdering apostates can be low in countries with a majority Muslim population (Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are all in the low single-digit percentage range, it's at 8% in Turkey), and the figures for minority Muslim communities in western countries might be comparably low. Also…

A minor correction: Bosnia is not a country with a majority Muslim population. At least 55% of people there are not Muslim. Christians make up 52% of the population (Serbian Orthodox 36%, Catholic 15%, Protestant 1%). There are also a few percents of atheist, Jews, and others. Edit: Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#Ethnic_...

My mistake. Bosniaks (who are predominantly Muslim) do only form the largest ethnic group, ie the 'relative majority'. I've actually visited the country and have 'extended' family (or whatever the proper English term for family you're only 'related' to by marriage is) that hails from there.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by DanBC » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:44 PM UTC

iamthepieman wrote: post #527

salgernon wrote: post #479

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In America, some 28% of christians are biblical literalists of the "God said it, I believe it, that settles it sort" So they probably would agree with this passage from their bible: Deuteronomy 13:6-10: “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast n…

> So they probably would agree with this passage from their bible: Deuteronomy 13:6-10: No. The bible says itself that those laws no longer apply. Romans 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Galatians 5:13-15 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as…

How about Matthew 25:35-40? How well is that going? People paying much attention to that one, or are Syrian refugees excluded from "one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine"?

Especially in light of this: http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/nov/17/te...

Which shows that the people fleeing are mostly Muslim. Muslims are more likely to be the victims of terrorist violence, not the perpetrators.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by wfo » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #605

wfo wrote: post #512

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In particular on HN there are plenty of a very extreme breed of libertarians who believe 'open society' means no regulation or taxes as well. It's a generic weasel word that means "stuff I like and not stuff I don't like".

If you mean it as a sort of "derogatory" description of what non-libertarians think of actual Libertarian beliefs, then that makes sense. However, in actuality, libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism is very clear about what its core foundations are. And you'll only find the left-libertarians that are very wishy-washy about their beliefs such that each one has their own definition of "stuff I like, and not stuff I don…

I didn't mean to be derogatory at all -- I just mean phrases like 'open society' are used in discussion and argument by a large variety of people with a large variety of beliefs, and it always essentially means 'an implementation of my particular belief system'. Libertarianism provided an excellent example because of how prevalent it is on HN -- so prevalent in fact that I had a real life Libertarian pop out to defend it!

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by oblio » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #402

oblio wrote: post #380

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That's a very polite way to deal with the problem. I've seen first hand that most people bend easily. A very charismatic leader can do a lot of harm. I'm a firm believer in anti-hate-speech laws.

Fair enough, but in that case you're not really a supporter of free speech. If you believe in outlawing certain kinds of harmful speech, why not other kinds of harmful speech?

That's a false dichotomy. Freedom is not absolute, it's already limited through various laws.

Why should speech be absolutely free when I am not absolutely free?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by tareqak » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 11:54 PM UTC

ufmace wrote: post #606

Ygg2 wrote: post #576

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Right? Just like killing Saddam and Gadafi stabilized the region. I'm sure nothing bad would happen. It's not like something worse than Al Quaida can happen again. Europe fully deserves the migrant crisis. It went into Middle East guns blazing, and expects to come out of it unscathed.

If done at the right time, it would have at least had a chance of transitioning to a somewhat more democratic form of government. As opposed to what actually happened when we did nothing, which is Islamic extremists being the main supporters of the resistance, versus the Russian and Iranian backed Assad. Assad believes that the West will grudgingly back him against ISIS extremists, and not so much against secular reb…

I do not see why there is such a strong desire to install secular democracies willy-nilly all over the world. Yes, we know that it is the best form of government, but the people living in these countries on the ground do not. I just do not think the majority of people there are ready for it.

A secular democracy requires some kind of enlightenment on the part of the people, and usually this enlightenment happens after a great sacrifice has been made (something on the level of a war of independence) or through the slow and steady movement towards universal suffrage by way of representation.

All that ends up happening when you give democracy to a population that is not ready for it are strongmen who vote themselves additional executive power through legislative hook or crook leading all the problems that a secular democracy is supposed to prevent.

Whether or not the West gets involved, one side will win or lose guaranteed. Trying to pick the least evil from the outside is an exercise in gambler's ruin.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by rtpg » Wed, Nov 18, 2015, 12:01 AM UTC

copperred wrote: post #306

rtpg wrote: post #235

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Wasn't there that guy in Santa Barbara who shot a bunch of women because he hated them? The Waco seige? No one has a monopoly on violence for attempting social change Though here that's beside the point. The Paris attacks were not because France is a free country, but because France was bombing Daesh. This is more like the Lockerbie bombing than like some sort of "clash of civilizations" that so many are implying

"The Paris attacks were...because France was bombing Daesh." What a disgusting rationalization of the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. "An online statement said eight militants armed with explosive belts and automatic weapons attacked carefully chosen targets in the "capital of adultery and vice," including a soccer stadium where France was playing Germany, and the Bataclan concert hall, where an American r…

Sorry, I don't mean to rationalise the killings of innocents. Of course it's disgusting. But the whole "Free country" rhetoric is just as much of a lie here as it was with 9/11. The fact that both Russia and France were recent targets of terrorism is no coincidence.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Post by gotchange » Wed, Nov 18, 2015, 12:02 AM UTC

alvarosm wrote: post #369

ocean3 wrote: post #187

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Why are France interested in ousting Assad?

The long sought pipe dream: socialdemocracy in the middle east. This time in the form of the so-called "Arab spring", a fiasco all EU and US liberals hailed as the panacea for the middle east and which has only caused untold suffering and destruction. Libya is in disarray, Egypt saved by the bell, and so on. Apparently we're too dumb to realize that the best these countries and their culture can do are kinda-socialis…

What about Tunisia? It looks like a success story to me. Please don't comment on Egyptian affairs if you are not well versed. Egypt wasn't in any trouble to be saved by a military coup in the first place. Actually, we're in deeper problems on many fronts whether in the economy, politics or security.

PS: Your supremacist view of our culture & political system is not to dignified with any comment