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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#451

Post by raverbashing »

inflagranti wrote: post #444
raverbashing wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see precious little difference to an attack on Fallujah to 'liberate' it and an attack on Paris to murder a bunch of people. Oh of course, they're the same thing. Bombing civilians (without those being the explicit target) in a military context is exactly the same thing as just invading a concert room or shooting randomly at people You're missing the context and the intent, just that. But I can see your ideology…

His whole point was about intent! You're the one who doesn't see: The intent on both sides is to tear down a system that has values different from theirs. The fact that Bush had an army and Bin Laden didn't doesn't change that. If you start talking about intent like this what your really saying is I share the values of one side and hence find their actions more justifiable. And I obviously even after with you about t…

No

One intends to cause terror, the other to hit military targets (against a certain government).

Who mentioned values?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#452

Post by [deleted] »

Cyph0n wrote: post #438
jules wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an atheist as well, but I realize that this may be just out of ignorance since I don't really know why somebody believes. Would you be willing to have a conversation about your faith so that I can understand the perspective of somebody who does believe?

Of course! Keep in mind that I'm just an average Muslim, so I might not be able to address all of your questions.

[deleted]

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#453

Post by raverbashing »

drumdance wrote: post #426
raverbashing wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see precious little difference to an attack on Fallujah to 'liberate' it and an attack on Paris to murder a bunch of people. Oh of course, they're the same thing. Bombing civilians (without those being the explicit target) in a military context is exactly the same thing as just invading a concert room or shooting randomly at people You're missing the context and the intent, just that. But I can see your ideology…

It's not the exactly the same thing from your perspective, but I bet it is from the victims'. Imagine if a drone from Saudi Arabia or better yet Assad's Syria swooped into your community looking for, the leader of a US infantry commander, and instead blew up a wedding party. And not just once, but dozens of times over the course of years. How would you feel about that? Would you want retribution? Would you want to sp…

Going for retribution continuously is the same thing as "an eye for an eye and the world will go blind"

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#454

Post by fauigerzigerk »

toyg wrote: post #429
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>his main motto is 'close the borders' I'm not out of touch enough to have missed this opinion. But that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. We don't have borders with Syria. But you are right that I don't know specifically what that Dutch politician actually demands other than closing the borders.

> that is not the same as saying that people should be sent back to war zones. "In the region", you can choose whether to send them to: 1) Turkey, an increasingly-authoritarian regime which is already overflowing with millions of refugees, making money with the fanatics and holding mainstream cultural values that tend to despise people from Syria/Kurdistan/Iraq; 2) Lebanon, a country where refugees from other conflic…

All true, but none of that contradicts what I said.

Right now, most refugees are in Turkey, Lebanon, Germany and Jordan (not counting the internally displaced). Lebanon and Jordan in particular are completely overwhelmed. What many people (such as the UK government) suggest is to help these countries cope by sending money and logistic support.

Many refugees understandably do not wish to spend the coming years in bleak refugee camps and want to leave the region. That is very understandable and in my opinion the world should agree on refugee quotas according to population size and economic strength. The world includes the United States of America that otherwise likes to make its presence felt in the Middle East.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#455

Post by greyfox »

iamthepieman wrote: post #37

I work with a Muslim and I'm a Christian. Since we are both very conservative, I actually have more in common with him than with my secular coworkers and friends. Unfortunately we both work remotely and live several hundred miles from each other. I think we could be good friends if we lived closer. One thing I have learned talking with my Muslim coworker is that, just like in Christianity, there are many divisions an…

what is atlantean? are you a subsect of protestant or catholic? i tried searching and couldn't come up with much results.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#456

Post by pomfia »

I am not advocating blissful ignorance or anything, but I'd be really bothered if religious and political talk become commonplace here. I mean we are inundated with apologies, cynicism and hyperbole from facebook/twitter/reddit already.

I will add something though. Why the apologies? The people apologizing have nothing to do with these acts and are pointless. Plus, why did all these barbarians start all this crap so recently ? Like after the 90's ?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#457

Post by drumdance »

gotchange wrote: post #312
rtpg wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't there that guy in Santa Barbara who shot a bunch of women because he hated them? The Waco seige? No one has a monopoly on violence for attempting social change Though here that's beside the point. The Paris attacks were not because France is a free country, but because France was bombing Daesh. This is more like the Lockerbie bombing than like some sort of "clash of civilizations" that so many are implying

I hate the clash of civilizations narrative and identity politics as much as the next guy but Paris wasn't attacked because France attacked ISIS first. On the contrary and let me refresh your memory, ISIS attacked first and murdered all those hostages held in captivity in Syria or Iraq mercilessly. Even if they hadn't killed western hostages, they'd still have to be taken down as they pose a threat and constitute a m…

This is just wrong. France has been bombing ISIS for over a year.

I think ISIS is a horrible, horrible movement that should be destroyed. But their strategy has been very consistent: attack countries that attack them.

They left Russia alone until Putin decided to bomb them. It was only a few weeks before they blew up a Russian airliner.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#458

Post by jules »

Cyph0n wrote: post #438
jules wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an atheist as well, but I realize that this may be just out of ignorance since I don't really know why somebody believes. Would you be willing to have a conversation about your faith so that I can understand the perspective of somebody who does believe?

Of course! Keep in mind that I'm just an average Muslim, so I might not be able to address all of your questions.

That's great, because one of the things I wonder most is what faith is like in day to day experience. I'll send you an email :)

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#459

Post by calibraxis »

calibraxis wrote: post #36
StavrosK wrote: post #2

Isn't it sad that this has to be said at all? "Hey, not every adherent of a religion supports killing innocent people of a different religion". It'd be like us having to apologize for the Crusades. Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade.

> Besides, the hits were driven by politics, religion is just a facade. Politics, markets and religion are greatly overlapping concepts! For example, an anthropologist points out that markets and major religions formed at the same time, and are frenemies. "Nowadays, the work of destroying such ways of life is still often done by missionaries–representatives of those very world religions that originally sprang up in r…

Excuse me for this absurd comment; I have a cold and there was really no point for it.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#460

Post by drumdance »

tome wrote: post #436
drumdance wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I donn't think the US is exactly the same as ISIS, but the fact remains that our invasion of Iraq was a war of choice. When you're under attack from a vastly superior military, your options for response are very limited. It's hard for us in the US to even conceive what it would be like to be in that situation. The only analog is a War of the Worlds style invasion by aliens.

This is certainly a fair point as far as it goes[1], but let's not forgot that Islamic terror was directed at the US for many years before Iraq! [1] and I still hold the idea that I held in 2003, that the Iraq war was a completely idiotic veture

> Islamic terror was directed at the US for many years before Iraq!

Al Qaeda had very specific grievances. They wanted US troops to leave Saudi Arabia, where they first put bases before the Persian Gulf War.

(Aside: Bin Laden offered his irregular forces to Saudi Arabia to help defend the kingdom from Saddam. He was rejected. That pissed him off some, but the presence of infidels in the land of Mecca pissed him off even more.)

Not saying terrorism is a legitimate response, but it's much more explainable than "they hates us for our freedoms."

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