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VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

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Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#401

Post by jules »

Cyph0n wrote: post #371
lottin wrote: post #333

As an atheist, I see Islam as a barbaric belief system of some ancient cave men. Sorry but I feel very difficult to empathise with people who in this day and age feel so strongly about religion.

You are entitled to your opinion. As a Muslim, I feel sorry for those who don't get Islam's message yet believe they do when all they're seeing is the surface.

I'm an atheist as well, but I realize that this may be just out of ignorance since I don't really know why somebody believes. Would you be willing to have a conversation about your faith so that I can understand the perspective of somebody who does believe?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#402

Post by lmm »

oblio wrote: post #380
lmm wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I disagree with what you say, but will defend your right to say it.

That's a very polite way to deal with the problem. I've seen first hand that most people bend easily. A very charismatic leader can do a lot of harm. I'm a firm believer in anti-hate-speech laws.

Fair enough, but in that case you're not really a supporter of free speech. If you believe in outlawing certain kinds of harmful speech, why not other kinds of harmful speech?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#403

Post by tome »

kohanz wrote: post #396
tome wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more hatred you direct towards Muslims, the more you drive them apart from you. I find this comment very strange. It's as though I can't acknowledge that Islamic terror is the biggest violent threat facing Europe whilst at the same time not hate muslims (?!?!?! how can anyone do that ?!?!?!).

If you don't understand how branding it as "Islamic" terror, despite the insignificant association between the two populations will make law-abiding Muslims (who make up about 99.99% and practise Islam) feel divided from you, I don't know what to tell you.

Ah, I see your point. Yes, using that word can easily mislead the general population. But what word would you suggest for a site (like this one) where people like to think they have a clue?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#404

Post by coldtea »

crusso wrote: post #365
coldtea wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because these people live in societies that have been colonized, manipulated, held down and bombed for decades on end, forcing them to get radically hateful and fundamentalist as a response and pass that on to others (younger men etc). Why would a white Swedish, Canadian etc. have any reason to do the same? Besides, is it just terrorism that's incompatible with an "open society", or other acts of murder and oppressio…

What's your point? That Islamic terrorism is compatible with open society because of a bunch of things were done to them over the past thousand years? Or is it that because Western society has had some bad actors/states, that we can never thereafter point to bad behaviors or systems of thought?

>What's your point? That Islamic terrorism is compatible with open society because of a bunch of things were done to them over the past thousand years?

The question in the thread wasn't whether "islamic terrorism" was compatible with open society, but whether islam itself is.

And my point it, whether it is or not, that "open society" is not as "open" as it pretends to be either.

If some family had done "a bunch of things" (of enslaving, torturing and murderous nature) to your family "over the past thousand years", would you see them as friends? Especially if they continued those things in one way or another up to today, while celebrating how "open" and "tolerant" they are, (as opposed to you, who hates them).

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#405

Post by jacquesm »

raverbashing wrote: post #345
jacquesm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it would be absolutely trivial to sketch the situation from a point of view where Bush, Blair and whole bunch of others would be seen as the terrorist masterminds causing the deaths of untold numbers of civilians. All in the name of the good of course, which is exactly what makes them just as bad as IS in that respect. They all actually believe they are doing the right thing. And that's a discussion that has…

> I see precious little difference to an attack on Fallujah to 'liberate' it and an attack on Paris to murder a bunch of people. Oh of course, they're the same thing. Bombing civilians (without those being the explicit target) in a military context is exactly the same thing as just invading a concert room or shooting randomly at people You're missing the context and the intent, just that. But I can see your ideology…

So, what is my ideology then? That violence is a means of last resort? That problems should be tackled at the root, not by attacking the symptoms? That religion - which I personally do not subscribe to - has problems, no matter where but that freedom of speech automatically implies freedom of religion and so it's here to stay and will have to be accommodated, in all it's forms?

Pick some, they're all true.

Bombing civilians in a trumped up war about resources is to the victims exactly the same as shooting randomly at people. Ditto blowing up weddings with rockets, killing a few hundred thousand civilians to stop them from subscribing to another ideology and so on.

All of these activities are deplorable. I'm all for national defense, I'm not a pacifist (try harming me or someone I love and see how that ends) but at the same time I'm all for restraint and very careful consideration of the consequences of actions.

Note that there is a fairly direct line between the Iraq invasion (which France was adamantly against, remember the 'surrender monkeys' and the 'Freedom Fries'?), and the attacks in Paris. Action begets reaction, so before you react without considering the consequences you should hold still. And only when and if you've identified root causes can you go and attack the problem.

Attacking Iraq on false pretexts after 9/11 was a step on the way to Liberating Fallujah (or should that be 'wiping it off the face of the earth') which indirectly led to the US leaving Iraq which led to a power vacuum which led to on the raid of Mosul by IS which was one step on the way to IS becoming more coherent which was one step on the way to a bunch of murderers shooting up the Paris nightlife.

It's not that hard. Context and intent are a lot more complex than they seem to be at first glance, ideology has precious little to do with it.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#406

Post by kelukelugames »

coldtea wrote: post #301
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become victims of that 40% That statement really doesn't make much sense at all. People are fleeing a war, among them people from the 40% and the 60% group alike. And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Many want the refugees stay somewhere in the region instead of letting them come…

> There is no 40% group of the population in Europe that holds views that are anywhere near as disgusting as that. Well, only 50+ years ago there was an over 40% population in the US that thought that blacks were inferior and shouldn't sit in the same restaurants/hotels/schools with whites. In fact it was even law in some states. Beyond that, there were about all major western countries, France, UK, Belgium, Holland,…

Isn't France still collecting some form of colonial tax from African countries?

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#407

Post by jacquesm »

sgt wrote: post #395
jacquesm wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no one in Europe is advocating throwing anyone back into a war zone. Ah, you must be a bit out of touch with recent developments in NL. We're soon to have elections and it looks like we'll have Geert Wilders for prime minister, his main motto is 'close the borders', the secondary one is 'the problem is the foreigners' and the third is 'let's throw all those refugees out'. And whether it is exactly 40% or not is…

I'm not in Europe, but I've heard about Geert Wilders and seen him speak in a few online videos. He doesn't actually seem to be that radical, except in terms of immigration where he seems to be taking a tough stance. But as all seemingly extremists becoming prime ministers, he'll eventually learn to see a bit more of the bigger picture and cool down if he gets in office.

At the risk of Godwinning this thread, that's something I read in some old documents too. That time it didn't work.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#408

Post by drumdance »

jacquesm wrote: post #70
cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

As the OP points out, ISIS is much more horrible to their own people.

ISIS and their ilk kill far more Muslims than any other group.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#409

Post by scrollaway »

alvarosm wrote: post #340
1_player wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid it's not as easy as booking a flight and taking a cab to the airport.

It could be, depends on the circumstances. Of course you have a point, there are always family ties and so on. But even without leaving Syria I guess you could be at safer places than Aleppo.

That's one hell of a bubble. You do know that for a lot of people, it's simply impossible to move out of their city, especially in countries like Syria and Pakistan? Family ties are the least of their problems. Most people simply don't have a wad of cash to do this with.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#410

Post by malka »

jules wrote: post #386
malka wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Know you are fighting men who look into the barrel of your gun and see heaven, how can you compete with that?" Do not give them death them. Give them suffering for years and years without the release of death. Let's see how they enjoy that.

I agree but in a different way. We should try to capture terrorists and put them in prison for life, and let Imams and psychologists work on them to convince them that what they did is wrong. To their fellow terrorists this means that they are now going to hell instead of heaven, because according to them the only way into heaven is by their cult ideology. That is what they fear most. The only deterrent is the possib…

ah true. I might have been too violent in my previous post. Sorry about that. wishing the death of another human being, no matter how horrible we consider him, should not happen.
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