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Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

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Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#101

Post by delish »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #77
bitslayer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you can see that they think the exact opposite. In order to do something like that, they have to convince themselves that they the good guys, and it has to be done to "purify the evil in the world" or something. The truth is that people are not inherently bad. Evil feeds on itself; if you insist on calling them bad, then you are falling into the same trap that they did. Hopefully you wouldn't act in such a hei…

> The truth is that people are not inherently bad. I don't know about that. I'd argue that most people don't think of themselves as bad, but it doesn't make them not-bad. And humanity definitely has base instincts - if we didn't, we wouldn't need governments and police.

> but it doesn't make them not-bad.

I disagree. I've never found a coherent absolute ethical framework. Not even "Don't kill people."

When anyone is arguing that something is bad, that person has to appeal an authority or belief. Often the reasoning leads to utilitarianism: "If we want society to continue, we should ban murder." But that's still an if/then statement. Beneath the if/then is an appeal that society is good or desired.

> And humanity definitely has base instincts - if we didn't, we wouldn't need governments and police.

This viewpoint becomes popular with Hobbes in the 1600s. I disagree with the term "base instincts," which negatively connotes those things. I'll change it to "randomness"; i.e. in a society of nondeterministic people, some will try to kill the others. Government and police try to reduce that kind of randomness. But from that same randomness we get music, science, justice. I'm speaking loosely of course.

I think of my American government as social contract, not as protective parent.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#102

Post by eblanshey »

themartorana wrote: post #65
GrinningFool wrote: post #37

Increasingly we're seeing 'encryption' discussed in mainstream media as a tool that can only be used for nefarious ends. Kind of like how they talked about "cookies" in the late 90s and early 00s. It's unfortunate that there's no way [without a lot of money] to launch a campaign that highlights the fact that most sensitive online transactions rely on encryption - banking, purchasing, etc - to protect you from The Bad…

Unfortunately, it's without a hint of irony, as the same media companies deploy SSL/TLS on their websites for - at least - login and signup, taking payments, and more. I'm not sure if it's simply that no one has explained that SSL/TLS is encryption, and the nefarious things that could be done (stealing identity, credit cards) if certain communications aren't encrypted. In the end, it's more education, isn't it? Most…

I'm pretty sure they are trying to push for encryption with government backdoor access. SSL certificates are issued by centralized authorities that can easily provide access to governments (if they don't do so already). Not that I agree with what they're trying to do.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#103

Post by GrinningFool »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #76
GrinningFool wrote: post #37

Increasingly we're seeing 'encryption' discussed in mainstream media as a tool that can only be used for nefarious ends. Kind of like how they talked about "cookies" in the late 90s and early 00s. It's unfortunate that there's no way [without a lot of money] to launch a campaign that highlights the fact that most sensitive online transactions rely on encryption - banking, purchasing, etc - to protect you from The Bad…

The EU is still losing its mind over cookies. Every Euro site now has a big disclaimer about cookies. The hysteria, at least for Europeans, never ended. Which is amusing considering how much local storage HTML5 can do and how easily it is to track people via their unique browser fingerprints, even with cookies and no plugins enabled. The reality is, of course, encryption was used in these attacks. These terrorists ar…

Yes. And (as someone pro-gun) the unconnected statistical arguments ("More people die from X every year..." and the hyperbolic arguments along the lines of, "You could kill someone with a knife, let's ban them!" are offensive to me.

Unfortunately, I'm already seeing similar hyperbolic arguments about cryptography - "let's outlaw math", etc.

As you implied, I'd like to see a rational discussion. Yes, cryptography can and will be used for nefarious purpose -- but it's used in much greater capacity for legitimate purposes. That's what needs to be emphasized - it's the only logical, supportable argument to make.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#104

Post by TrevorJ »

fukusa wrote: post #92
copperred wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point. What the Paris attackers did makes them bad people. It's not up for debate.

The problem is that by calling them 'bad people' you imply that they committed the crime because they were 'bad people'. And that's the core of the problem. They were not 'bad people' before they committed the crime. They were just people in need of help. By focusing on how they were 'bad people' you make it seem like you haven't contributed to the problem and there is no other solution then to fight them (using viol…

This sounds uncomfortably close to victim blaming.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#105

Post by thomasahle »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #95
madmulita wrote: post #13

I blame prime numbers, even co-primes should be banned. Please contact your representative and help us free the world from evil math.

This! The generation of large primes needs to be banned. The government needs to work with chips manufacturers to insure that no computing device can generate large primes. This is the root of the issue. If large primes go away, so does encryption! We need to make sure our government understands this. #BanLargePrimes

> The government needs to work with chips manufacturers to insure that no computing device can generate large primes. Please don't tempt them.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#106

Post by unethical_ban »

Jim Bamford of Foreign Policy said encryption was part of the way this was done.

On the Diane Rehm Show, when asked what we know, he said "not much, but that encryption or anonymizers, like Tor, might have been used to hide their communications".

So they're already working to plant that narrative in listeners' heads.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#107

Post by chki »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #83
smcl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how politicians twist reason to suit their own ends. Bad guys use guns, but apparently were not allowed to ban them because they'll somehow find a way to get them no matter what. So the solution is to legalise them. However when it comes to encryption, bad guys use it so it needs to be banned! It's like they have it completely backwards.

Some would argue that banning tools of any kind is a stupid and feckless way to address cultural problems.

But that arguing would clearly be flawed. I could thing of a lot of weapons that I would not want to see in the hands of everybody I meet on the street. I think it is partially correct to say that about certain information based "tools" (like encryption or information in newspapers) but sometimes that is not true as well, for example with certain malware

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#108

Post by ColinWright »

exabrial wrote: post #98

I encourage open thought rather than mob attacks on unpopular opinions. Anyone have a link to the original article?

A quick search of this thread reveals:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10580586

https://web.archive.org/web/20151115191248/http://www.nytime...

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#109

Post by vonmoltke »

pfg wrote: post #50
melling wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be overlooking the obvious argument that if a small group of people use encryption, then you greatly reduce the number of messages that you need to flag. Furthermore, if someone on a Watch List starts using encryption then perhaps you have an imminent problem. I'm not on the side of reading messages but you missed the real argument being made. Typical HN. How about someone answering the argument that will…

> You can downvote me but you don't get a downvote in governments around the world when they outlaw real encryption. I'm pretty sure you can downvote them by voting for representatives that do not support such laws. At least if you're in some kind of democracy.

There should be a name for this fallacy. This is easy to say for any issue in isolation, but what is a voter to do when they only have two or three choices? When there are dozens of issues at any given time the chances of having a candidate that aligns with you on all of them is nil.

Re: Times Pulls Article Blaming Encryption in Paris Terror Attack

#110

Post by tokai »

donkeyd wrote: post #4

Even without having encryption in main stream applications, like WhatsApp, it's child's play to communicate secretly. There are so many open source applications that allow you to do this, it wouldn't even be a speed bump for criminals. Targeting main stream applications only hurts main stream users. NYT should write an article about that.

In the end bad guys could just use an one-time pad through unsecured communication channels. Then we have to ban pens, paper and dices.
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