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The War ISIS Wants

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101–110 of 228 posts

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it funny that Wahabbists hate being called that ? They get really agitated and say we're not Wahabbis we're just true muslims. One interesting theory I read is that 19th Century Islam was forced to confront the reality that they had declined while Europe had soared. In the ensuing conflict of ideas the one that won out was the thesis that the Islamic world had declined because they had gotten out of touch with…

If one says "keeping up the articles of Magna Carta, rather than resort to catastrophic violence on the part of the powerful outlawed states, would likely help lessen some of the chaos in today's world", does it imply that one is physically calling to go back to the thirteenth century? Similarly, Americans calling to restore the fourth amendment may not mean taking the clock back to the nineteenth century. Salafism i…

>In the world of Fukuyama et al, rather than a basic religious worldview with precise tenets, is there a solid framework of meaningfully defining/determining good/triumph/progress?

Fukuyama himself considered capitalist democracy to be the End of History, so yes.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#102
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical Islam is not solely a response to western influence. It sure is also that, but it is also due to the ideology of the islam itself and the failure to modernise it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_modernity

I agree with this. We shouldn't forget that Muhammad was basically a military leader. Anyway, we are in danger that this narrative and others similar becomes the only explanation in the mainstream media, instead of only a factor that probably is not very relevant. After all, the majority of Muslims don't believe that they should go to war with other countries.

I believe it is relevant. The West is sticking it's nose into many places around this world. But the response is not always the killing of civilians. Take South America for example. Their answer is much smarter, because their approach is different. I think the middle east approach is tainted by some parts of the islamic ideology.

This is not to say, that I agree with what the west is doing. I think "what goes around, comes around" applies here very well...

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#103

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

>> for opportunities to sow chaos because they believe it will tip the scales eventually toward a Caliphate.

From what I've been told and read, they've already established a Caliphate. The primary driver of having a Caliphate is that ISIS must control territory, without controlling territory, there is no Caliphate - correct?

This was one of the best explanations I've read about why ISIS is doing what it is doing:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

If it loses its grip on its territory in Syria and Iraq, it will cease to be a caliphate. Caliphates cannot exist as underground movements, because territorial authority is a requirement: take away its command of territory, and all those oaths of allegiance are no longer binding.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

advanced, wealthy, egalitarian societies simply do not produce babies because nobody really needs them and they're extremely expensive both in actual cost and opportunity cost, especially for females. sure you can shift the cost from the family to the taxpayer or employer, but that doesn't actually remove it. and this phenomenon is not limited to white people, i.e. japan, korea, singapore, taiwan. https://www.google.…

It is not the fact that nobody needs them. It is rather that members of such societies delay this step (to an uncertain extent) due to having a large amount of possible/alternative life choices, which sadly a negative consequence of such a blossoming society.

It's not that people delay having children, it's that society punishes having children.

My fiancee's pregnant coworker was told (we live in the USA, unfortunately) that she would have six weeks of unpaid leave after giving birth, followed by two weeks of short-term disability insurance, and then she could return to work or lose her job. This is for a salaried, postdoctoral scientist at a biotechnology company. In a related matter, the same HR employee who explained that policy says that he opposes the very idea of paternity leave -- and he's a male homosexual.

Likewise, the largest wage gap between men and women isn't actually a gap between men and women, it's a gap between men and mothers.

It takes two incomes to support a household these days, and yet society punishes women for childbearing as if it only took one. What did they expect would happen under these conditions, that people would stop responding to economic incentives "because babies"?

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#105

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

It's also worth pointing out that even Salafi jihadism isn't a homogenous whole, with many of the other jihadist movements actively fighting ISIS

A key difference between al Qaeda, which could broadly be defined as trying to "tip the scales eventually toward a Caliphate" whilst battling for certain populist causes and ISIS is that the latter considers itself to be a Caliphate, and is actively pushing for the Islamic equivalent of Armageddon. That means it isn't going to calm down, but it also means that its claims to legitimacy based on fulfilment of prophecies about unification of territories are more readily defeated by military means than other jihadists' claims to be defending the Muslim world from infidels.

Edit: see also this user's point and linked article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10581489

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#106
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. We shouldn't forget that Muhammad was basically a military leader. Anyway, we are in danger that this narrative and others similar becomes the only explanation in the mainstream media, instead of only a factor that probably is not very relevant. After all, the majority of Muslims don't believe that they should go to war with other countries.

I believe it is relevant. The West is sticking it's nose into many places around this world. But the response is not always the killing of civilians. Take South America for example. Their answer is much smarter, because their approach is different. I think the middle east approach is tainted by some parts of the islamic ideology. This is not to say, that I agree with what the west is doing. I think "what goes around,…

You know what? Never though about the South America example before.

You have convinced me that religion is important here. I will think about it.

Did you convinced somebody before about anything in an Internet forum? ;-)

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#107
post #73

The article is a nuanced view of the present situation, but doesn't go into the historical perspective. Contemporary radical Islam is a response to Western modernity and perceived decadence and has been brewing for decades if not centuries. It is an outgrowth of Salafi Islam, a severely literal interpretation of the Koran that has become widespread over the past 70 years thanks to trillions of petrodollars that fund…

Radical Islam is not solely a response to western influence. It sure is also that, but it is also due to the ideology of the islam itself and the failure to modernise it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_war | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_modernity

I vehemently disagree with this. Islam DID modernise; what we're seeing is a regression, and I think a good deal of the blame can be placed on Washington and Moscow.

A half-century ago, very little of what was happening in the Middle East had anything to do with Islam. Most of the leadership in the region was secular; some states were quite democratic.

Egypt is one of the most conservative places today, chafes under the yoke of a secular government, wants to be Islamist. A half-century ago under Nasser, Egypt was the source of secularism in the region and was pulling other Middle Eastern nations towards its secular nationalism. Similarly, Iran was extremely secular in the 50s, and remained so under the Shah; many secular elements were instrumental in pulling him down.

Both of these poles were toppled by American efforts. Egypt was slowly pulled towards the Washington Consensus by buying the government, which became increasingly repressive. The same result was achieved in Iran with a coup that toppled the democratic government. In both of these places the reaction to a repressive secular regime had a strong Islamist component (both Shia and Sunni).

It wasn't just in government that this reversal happened; the primary popular resistance organizations during the 20th century were also secular. The PLO, PFLP, and so on were all secular Marxist organisations, and young radicals fighting against American hegemony, the same space ISIS has colonised now, would not have given a fig for jihad. It was the failure of these organisations to provide the liberation sought that led to the eventual rise of Islamist alternatives, like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and al-Qaeda.

Contemporary Sunni jihadi ideology, in fact, had its origins in Egypt in the 60s thanks to people like Hassan al-Banna and Sayed Qutb, who developed much of the thinking that fueled al-Qaeda ideologically. This was a modern development, a reaction to the spread of secular thought and colonialism; it is not a continuous expression of Islam.

Finally, let's not forget the active American support of conservative religious Saudi Arabia, to the tune of billions in military hardware and ironclad political alliance, as well as the arming of the Afghan mujahideen against the Soviets, both of which were signal events in fanning the flames of radical Sunni Islamism.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#108
post #10
post #4

So, it seems that the only way to fight this was is to change their minds by asking assistance from the peaceful Muslim groups. We can discriminate Daesh and Muslims, and that only shows the monsters they say we are. We can bomb Daesh, which only encourages more to join their cause. Worst case, we can nuke the whole area of Iraq and Syria where Daesh has power, and that would only show every Muslim in the world that…

I disagree. The last time we tried that went horribly wrong; we watched and negotiated and "waged the war of ideology" too patiently while Hitler grew in power, until ultimately the Nazis had to be fought and slaughtered and condemned without mercy. If history repeated itself, we would be wise to intervene faster instead of twiddling our thumbs on the sidelines. And we'd know that waging any kind of ideological war w…

> The last time we tried that ...

Let's keep things in perspective here. Yes, the rest of the world was too complacent about the rise of the Nazis and Hitler, but that's not the last time we've had to deal with this sort of thing.

Red Army Faction (and Baader-Meinhof), Action Directe, the PIRA, the Corleonesi faction of the Sicilian Mafia, the FSLN, and the Basque ETA are all terrorist groups that essentially no longer exist or have mutated into legitimate political parties.

Still more recently than Hitler was neo-Nazism, which, while it still exists in pockets, has lost almost all of the coordinated criminal/terrorist organizations which existed in post-war Europe.

Suggesting that the narrative of ideological warfare went from the Crusades to WWII to ISIS with no breaks in between and meriting only a single response (military action) is historically naive.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#109
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe instead, European nations should look into instituting domestic policies that encourage the population to maintain a healthy replacement rate. So, 18 months maternity/paternity leave, 180€ per month per child you have, plus tax breaks, plus better credit rating, plus 12 more sick days a year, plus subsidized kindergarten and daycare (with guaranteed daycare place from age 3 on), cheap whole-day school for chi…

Honestly, no. That's not enough. You're competing with jobs here, and you ask if 180€ a month is sufficient? And then you're surprised that women prefer to stay in the workforce?

You're also dealing with a labor market that punishes people who actually take their maternity/paternity leave, or who actually leave the labor force to raise children, by simply never letting them back into a career-track position ever again.

So not only does 180€/month not substitute for a second salary, it doesn't substitute for the permanent hit to the second wage-earner's career caused by raising children.

The economic message is clear: raising children is intended to be a low-paid, part-time job done on top of a full-time career for economically non-valuable warm-fuzzies.

Re: The War ISIS Wants

#110
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. We shouldn't forget that Muhammad was basically a military leader. Anyway, we are in danger that this narrative and others similar becomes the only explanation in the mainstream media, instead of only a factor that probably is not very relevant. After all, the majority of Muslims don't believe that they should go to war with other countries.

I believe it is relevant. The West is sticking it's nose into many places around this world. But the response is not always the killing of civilians. Take South America for example. Their answer is much smarter, because their approach is different. I think the middle east approach is tainted by some parts of the islamic ideology. This is not to say, that I agree with what the west is doing. I think "what goes around,…

I believe Tupac Amaru and Shining Path would like a word with you from prison, also the entire 1970s in Argentina and Uruguay
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